[J_9]

Oh, goodness, this was during Group Therapy? Well, nothing is private in group therapy.

[susangpyp]

I like the quote about success is building a foundation with bricks thrown by others by David Brinkley.....seems like a lot of bricks are being thrown with no real answers. By the way he has been sober for a long time. I just think people should broaden their minds.

Maybe you should explain the whole situation because it doesn't make sense. Why is he in treatment if he's been sober a long time? What did the counselor say and to whom? Why did you start this whole string? What are you looking for?

[kp2171]

So I was going to engage this post with some perspective, having a father who is a functioning alcoholic who does pretty well, but I cannot stand it when a new member joins the site, asks for opinions, and then burns the place down posting "disagrees" left and right with members who are taking time to try to talk it out.

Its rude, disrespectful, and an ignorant way to live. And too bad, since I have some overlapping agreement with you, though not at all fully overlapping.

No respect for a person who asks for opinions and then flags all posts that don't perfectly match your opinion. Next time don't ask for opinions. Ask for bobbleheads.

[mynamezdeb]

He was in an inpatient type treatment. He still goes to private couselor and AA meetings. The outpatient couselor is not the one I am talking about. His inpatient treatment was what made me think. The in house only helped him to stay away from alcohol and detox without DT's. But his counselor made him leave early because my husband didn't trust him. The comments that were shared were made during private sessions. The couselor though spread them everywhere. Another counselor in the facility told my husband to comfront Steve about hearing his private sessions all over the place. He did and was promptly sent home. He went into immediate outpatient and has done fine but I would hate to see someone else go through this same stuff they might not be as lucky. I am a RN. I do understand alcoholism. But there is no treatment geared to anyone who does not fit the mold. Not all fit the mold. His outpatient treatment even though they still push the mold of an alcoholic and the AA and they do as well is something he wanted to do for himself. I wish there were more information for those who are outside the box.

[talaniman]

Just to clear the air, diabetes is a disease of the body, alcoholism is a disease of the mind, and they both require proper diagnoses, and treatment. Yes us drunks do many things that just ain't right, and cause a lot of misery and pain. Do you think we do it on purpose, or even wish to? You'd be very wrong, as we are powerless, and that stuff fooled us, as no one starts of being a drunk, and some can drink without misery and pain, but others learn they are the few who cannot. So before we go all moralistic, and condescending, just remember the alcohol is but a symptom, of a greater problem, as diabetes is but a symptom of a greater problem. One physical, one mental, they both need treatment to survive, and enough of us have. Smokers are like alcoholics also, just try quitting, and you can understand the dilemma, when the body calls for that substance to ease that discomfort or pain. There is hope, and whether you understand it or not, just know the suffering, and deal with that. And please spare me the choices crap, that's bull. But as a long time friend of Bill, we can talk about being responsible for our own actions. That also comes with the territory.

[mynamezdeb]

Most alcoholics that are sober for a long time still seek treatment. I went to an open AA meeting with my husband last week and some have been sober over 20 years. It's a never ending disease.

[shygrneyzs]

There are alternative treatment places. More of a holistic approach - surprised you did not know that.

About the privacy violation - did you file a complaint?

[mynamezdeb]

I am open and blunt even in person. So I have the right to agree or disagree just as you do.

[J_9]

I understand you are an RN, but have you ever worked in an in-patient rehab facility? There are different dynamics in an in-patient rehab center than there is on the floor of a medical facility.

Oh, and KP, I had to spread the love... but your post was most excellent.

[mynamezdeb]

Thank goodness finally someone who makes sense.

[mynamezdeb]

Yes I have worked with substance abuse.

[J_9]

I totally agree with Tal here... I come from a very long line of alcoholics. I saw what it did to my family and I CHOSE not to ever drink understanding that I have the possibility of becoming an alcoholic myself. My father was sober 33 years before he passed, and he still frequently went to AA meetings.

I also come from a long line of people with HTN, and I have modified all of my risk factors (albiet smoking, but I am quitting now and almost one month smoke free), and guess what. I have high blood pressure.

So, to clarify my wording of "choices," we have modifiable risk factors and non-modifiable risk factors.

Modifiable risk factors are the choices we make, the things we change in our lifestyle to avoid or prolong the progression of a disease or disorder... As I know I come from a long line of alcoholics, I choose not to drink, I have modified my lifestyle so that I will not become an alcoholic.

Non-modifiable risk factors are those that we have no control over.

Look, Deb, I'm not trying to disagree with you here about the disease itself, but basically about your comparison to diabetes.

Is it possible that there was something that happened in the in-patient setting that you do not know about? Something you have not been told? You say that these therapists said that your husband was "lying." Many of these therapists have been where your husband is. Many places will only employ ex-addicts to be therapists only because they know where the addict is coming from. They are well versed in the ways of the alcoholic or drug addict, as they have been there themselves.

Also, if this was such a long time ago, why dig up old skeletons? Why worry about it now?

[kp2171]

I knew I couldn't stay away from this.

I'm not a trained med person, but I've observed enough to have an opinion.

alcoholism is "simply complex" (great to open with an oxymoron). It is tied to mental wiring (even through genetic disposition). Did I say faulty? no. I don't think its very sustainable to living a healthy life physically or emotionally, but then I don't think people who sleep with strangers are living a healthy life physically or mentally. I don't need to be in someone else's bedroom to tell them how they should keep their bed... but there are obvious risks, both mental and physical, to that behavior.

the original post question... was tied to a frustration with "one size fits all" treatment. I'm not an expert here. Western med does a decent job much of the time living on statistics. You are trained to diagnose with a, b, c... and then treatments follow that seem to have a positive effect on most of the population. Some people don't fit the mold. Some fall through the cracks. Its unfortunate.

my wife had fibroid cysts and adhesions. I know, its not alcoholism, stay with me. Western med ran its course. Three years later, one operation later, still the same noise. Time for more cutting, was the recommendation. She turned to acupuncture, massage, exercise, and specific manipulative therapy. It was amazing. All I can say is I wouldn't be a father today if she followed "the mold" treatement.

so... transition to alcoholism... well... what about obeisity? Is it tied to choice? Is it tied to metabolic problems? Does it have physical and mental consequences? It is a "condition" that is complex, with multiple variables, that isn't as simple as "eat less, move more"...

and alcoholism is no different. I had a greatgrandfather who was a b@stard. Mean, mean alcoholic. Grandfather who was not a drunk, but not too far off. Father who is clearly a functioning alcoholic. And then there's me. I seem to have the most "willpower" of the bunch. I know I could step over the edge if I wanted to. I don't seem to struggle like the men before me.

I think it should be treated as a disease condition, but I don't think a person should be ashamed. I also don't think a person should accept it as a reasonable way to live. Sure, it can be, what at what cost? So the conflict is with this label of "disease"... I have good friend who is an addict... its not anything in particular... this year it might be gambling, or sex, or alcohol, or drugs... he just has a self destructive mindset, and seems to accept the consequences... even though he wishes they don't happen.

so... I honestly believe some people do "choose" diabetes. My grandmother was obese, a drinker, inactive, and ate poorly. Big surprise. She CHOOSE diabetes. Once she had it, the choice was done. Others don't choose... just as some people with healthy lifestyles have strokes or heart attacks.

so should we label it as a disease? Sure? Is smoking a disease? A mental choice? An addiction? A bad behavior that has clearly documented consequences?

we don't call smoking a "disease", but it has clear physical consequences, which can also play into an emotional toll. By the way... I don't smoke regularly, but ill puff a good cigar probably 3 times a year.

there is value is treating the actions as a disease. And there is value in recognizing that not all people fit the mold... if health care were A,B,C... then docs and RNs would not have jobs. There's a lot of gray areas in medicine, especially that which is tied to behavior and the mind.

[mynamezdeb]

Whew. Thanks to J_9 and KP. I don't think anything happened in in-patient other than what I know. I have it from more than one sorce. I have been with my husband for years and he for one hasn't shown me any signs of being untruthful with me. It stays on mind constantly because since I am in medicine and I have seen doctors lie to their patients or not give them all the details it bothers me. I was actually hoping that I wasn't the only one with the view I have. A lot of people do not choose diabetes with their life style. Some people who have it in their genes acquire it as a child or as a healthy thin individual. So again not all in the same mold. As far as addicition I would hate to see some lamen (not in the medical field) who believes everything their doctor or family member's doctor says as the whole truth and because they didn't fit the A> B> C> treatment gave up. I do think there is a big chance that if the person seeks inpatient help and is discharged before being helped because they can't change counselors or they don't fit the mold they may not seek further help. We went straight to another treatment though it was outpatient and we were lucky. J-9 great that you could see and choose not to take the same route as your relatives. My husband was introduced to it the first time at the age of 3 from his birth father. His parents were divorced when he was a baby. So the birth father on visitation who was hard partier and an alcoholic just helped him along to become one too. There are a lot of gray areas I was just hoping to shed some light into one of them.

[lovelesspa]

While you all might not be ashamed, there are a lot of people who are ashamed of their drinking, they drink alone, or hide the bottles all over, or drink mouthwash, thinking no one will know, inwardly they know they are hurting their families, relationships, chances of a healthy future, and maybe even endangering their jobs. Yet they won't stop. The term "disease", bothers me a lot, I don't know why we want to call it that, cancer is a disease, MS is a disease, these things are conditions that we did not do to ourselves, that just happen to us. Being a alcoholic is what you've done to yourself, you drank the stuff, and now you won't stop drinking and you have become a problem and a danger to yourself and others. My grandfather drank to excess so therefore was an alcoholic, but no one in the next three generations has this problem, or lack of self control. I consider alcoholics people with no self control, if they want help it's out there, I'm not saying they should be ashamed, nor should they proudly boast, I'm an alcoholic.

[s_cianci]

Why then do the professionals think all alcoholics are hiding their drinking, hiding behind a mask, and should be ashamed that they have a disease?

I don't think that professionals think that alcoholics should be "ashamed" that they have a disease. In fact, a crucial first step to getting help is to admit that one has a problem. But I'm sure that a lot of professional have dealt with patients that they were supposedly helping, who presumably want to treat their condition, who continue to drink "in the closet", so to speak, thereby showing no desire to want to be helped. And that's got to be mighty frustrating to a professional who's trying to help someone. That's not to say that all alcoholics do that bit I'm sure that a lot of them do.