[smoothy]

Again--sexual acts are different than sexual intercourse.

I want to know where you draw the line, then, Smoothy. Where is the line that says you can do up to X things with your boyfriend before you aren't a virgin anymore?

It's not people trying to have it both ways--it's people trying to define "virgin" as "pure".

Virgin only means you haven't had intercourse. It says NOTHING about whatever else you may or may not have done.

If that isn't what it means---where is the line? Where do you define how much experience makes you no longer a virgin?

Who delineated the term at sexual intercourse and when. If you quote the Bible keep in mind its not a literal document but more of a metaphorical one.

We all know what its supposed to mean, and the problem is people that like I said are trying to have it both ways by parsing words.

There really is no stigma in most cultures to not be a virgin. SO if you want to have sex... don't claim to be a virgin. And its well within ones personal rights to abstain from, oral , anal or even vaginal intercourse. But don't be doing any of these and try to "CLAIM" to be a virgin.

Sex is sex. Plain and simple. If someone's genitals are involved for someone's pleasure its sex. If its not sex then there isn't a problem of your spouse doing this with others, after all , its not sex. See my point..

A virgin doesn't do stuff some married people won't do together.

[Synnen]

I'd have a problem with my husband holding hands with someone else.

I'd also have a problem with him going out and doing the things teenagers do on dates (dinner, movies, roller skating, coffee, whatever) on a regular basis with another woman.

I'd have problems with him sending her letters talking about the way her hair shimmers.

To me, all of that is as much a "cheat" as having out and out sex.

So--"dating" would be losing your virginity, if we were defining is at something you wouldn't want your spouse doing with someone else.

If you want to define it as having to do with genitals, fine--but that's not the dictionary definition, and it's not the definition I'd go by.

[smoothy]

I'd have a problem with my husband holding hands with someone else.

I'd also have a problem with him going out and doing the things teenagers do on dates (dinner, movies, roller skating, coffee, whatever) on a regular basis with another woman.

I'd have problems with him sending her letters talking about the way her hair shimmers.

To me, all of that is as much a "cheat" as having out and out sex.

So--"dating" would be losing your virginity, if we were defining is at something you wouldn't want your spouse doing with someone else.

If you want to define it as having to do with genitals, fine--but that's not the dictionary definition, and it's not the definition I'd go by.

Keep in mind what defines sex... will be used in divorce court as well to define sex.

Like I said... guys can easily have sex with a woman without all the touchy feeling dating things. Therefore theoretically you spouse could be engaging in acts that constitute sex...

Would you be happy in a spouse taking that definition and thumbing his nose at you in divorce court? Since if its not sex to plow away orally or anally its not extramarital sex and therefor not grounds for a divorce.

See where I'm going with this?

[Synnen]

I see what you're saying---and what I'm saying is that I'd be more likely to TAKE him to divorce court for the OTHER stuff.

The problem isn't really the definition of virginity--it's the definition of "sex".

I agree that one shouldn't be able to slut around and do everything else BUT vaginal intercourse (and that goes for guys as well as girls!--both giving and receiving) and still call themselves "pure"---but they're not. They're calling themselves 'virgins'. Technically, they ARE virgins. They haven't had sexual intercourse.

That being said--the MAIN emphasis, historically, for wanting virginity was because men wanted to make sure that their heir was THEIR heir. The societies that historically don't place a lot of emphasis on virginity tend to be matriarchal societies--where HER kid is obviously HER kid. The secondary emphasis was to keep STDs out of a married relationship. Granted, it's a little harder to prove a guy is a virgin, really.

Really, what it comes down to is that virginity shouldn't be the emphasis we're teaching our kids. Virginity doesn't matter a damn, really. What we SHOULD be teaching is how to have safer sexual interactions, and how to be honest in their relationships--and to stop judging people by how many OTHER people they've had sexual interactions with.

[smoothy]

I see what you're saying---and what I'm saying is that I'd be more likely to TAKE him to divorce court for the OTHER stuff.

The problem isn't really the definition of virginity--it's the definition of "sex".

I agree that one shouldn't be able to slut around and do everything else BUT vaginal intercourse (and that goes for guys as well as girls!--both giving and receiving) and still call themselves "pure"---but they're not. They're calling themselves 'virgins'. Technically, they ARE virgins. They haven't had sexual intercourse.

That being said--the MAIN emphasis, historically, for wanting virginity was because men wanted to make sure that their heir was THEIR heir. The societies that historically don't place a lot of emphasis on virginity tend to be matriarchal societies--where HER kid is obviously HER kid. The secondary emphasis was to keep STDs out of a married relationship. Granted, it's a little harder to prove a guy is a virgin, really.

Really, what it comes down to is that virginity shouldn't be the emphasis we're teaching our kids. Virginity doesn't matter a damn, really. What we SHOULD be teaching is how to have safer sexual interactions, and how to be honest in their relationships--and to stop judging people by how many OTHER people they've had sexual interactions with.

THey are quite interrelated.

Virgins by definition aren't virgins if they have had sex. Some have argued what constitutes sex.


Like I said... I guy can have a booty call without the hand holding, letter writing etc.

After all, what defines a prostitute? She gets paid for it. There are plenty of women that do it free. You can have sex without all the other trappings and its still sex.

If you are trying to excuse certain acts as not being sex so you can claim a virgin is still a virgin... then those acts can not by your definition be considered extramarital sex.

See... it really is a cut and dry issue... not one of circular logic.

I do feel the whole virgin thing is a bit outdated... but like anything else... if a person choses to remain one ( it's their right)... then abstain from sex... if you don't abstain then you aren't a virgin. After all like I said earlier. Sexually experienced virgin is an oxymoron.

Its like a vegan chowing down on a hamburger and arguing it doesn't count if they leave off the condiments.

[Synnen]

Actually, it's NOT cut and dried.

But... we ARE going in circles.

Your definition of sex, and MY definition of sex are two different things. Your definition of cheating and mine are different. Your definition of virginity and mine are different.

THAT is why I'm saying we should talk about sexual experiences with potential partners, and (I can't believe I'm saying this) leave the whole question of virginity out of it.

[smoothy]

I feel it really is cut and dry as long as you don't have double standards. If its not sex for them, then its not sex if it happened to be your spouse doing the same thing.

That's why I say one standard... that applies to everyone equally and legally as to what is and isn't sex.

What's wrong with that?

Personally I've respected women that were virgins... doesn't mean I didn't try my best to get them into bed. In my case it wasn't to score conquests... I never chased "Virgins". If they happened to be then they happened to be. But none of them ever claimed to be a virgin and then tried to have it both ways. The virgins I knew were virgins. They didn't perform fellatio, they didn't perform anal sex. Nor did any of them jam their hands in my pants.

I tried to get everyone I ever dated into bed... virgin or not. A handful the relationship never lasted that long... quite a few we were bumping uglies a few hours later.

[NeedKarma]

Here's my non-double-standard: If I'm not a virgin then I don't expect them to be. Quite simple actually.

[smoothy]

Here's my non-double-standard: If I'm not a virgin then I don't expect them to be. Quite simple actually.

No problem with that one... Its never been an important thing for me if she was a virgin or not. Hell back then I was happy to get what I got when I got it.

[confused25]

Wow this has turned into a real debate. Well again, I would like to mention that the one who asked this question is a guy (that's me). I think all of you are right, which makes things kind of hard. As I mentioned I have had oral sex (given and received) but never sexual intercourse. There is definitely no way that I can say that I was pure because I did engage in a sexual act. As to whether I am still a virgin, well, I'm still stuck in the middle, but I can guarantee that I won't be telling women I'm a virgin because at this point it seems a little misleading.

I also agree that we need to change the definition of the term. Remember, words and their definitions have a lot of power. Case in point, there are MANY teenagers in high school and even middle school who see oral sex as the same thing as kissing. They don't constitute it as sex and therefore are very willing to engage in it. That is why so many young folk are doing it today. So, if we change the definition it will definitely have a very powerful impact.

[NeedKarma]

You could always use the Seinfeld standard:

Elaine: Hey, Jerry, when do you consider sex has taken place?
Jerry: I'd say when the nipple makes its first appearance.

:)

[ScottGem]

I really can't believe this debate still goes on. I see so many answers that include "I believe" and "its my opinion" and the like. But the problem is, its NOT something one believes nor is it something subject to opinion. It IS very cut and dried. A virgin is someone who has not experienced penetration of a vagina by a penis. End of story! There should not be and can't be any debate on the issue any more than one can debate gravity.

Yes the definitions of purity, chastity, sexual experience, etc are subject to debate. Those issue are more a matter of opinion. Morality is somewhat fluid and people have more liberal views then they did 40 or more years ago. Its almost expected these days that one has had some sexual experience.

And if someone wants to change the definition of virginity, then go to Websters, Funk and Wagnells, etc. and get the definition changed. But until that happens, what constitutes being a virgin is a matter of fact, not opinion.

[Choux]

Well put!

[smoothy]

Another oxymoron... a virgin whore.

If it wasn't for Monica Lewinski I don't think we would even be having this discussion. It would have been clear to most people.


Dictionary:
virgin
(vûr'jĭn) pronunciation

n.

1. A person who has not experienced sexual intercourse.
2. A chaste or unmarried woman; a maiden.
3. An unmarried woman who has taken religious vows of chastity.
4. Virgin The Virgin Mary.
5. Zoology. A female insect or other arthropod that produces fertile eggs without copulating.

adj.

1. Of, relating to, or being a virgin; chaste.
2. Being in a pure or natural state; unsullied: virgin snow.
3. Unused, uncultivated, or unexplored: virgin territory.
4. Existing in native or raw form; not processed or refined.
5. Happening for the first time; initial.
6. Obtained directly from the first pressing: virgin olive oil.
7. Zoology. Producing fertile eggs without copulating.

[Middle English, from Old French virgine, from Latin virgō, virgin-.]

Thesaurus: virgin

Noun

A pure, uncorrupted person: angel, innocent, lamb. See clean/dirty, right/wrong.

Adjective

Morally beyond reproach, especially in sexual conduct: chaste, decent, modest, nice, pure, virginal, virtuous. See good/bad, restraint/unrestraint, sex/asexual.

[NeedKarma]

Same here: virgin - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

1 a: an unmarried woman devoted to religion bcapitalized : virgo
To a: an absolutely chaste young woman b: an unmarried girl or woman
3capitalized : virgin mary
For a: a person who has not had sexual intercourse b: a person who is inexperienced in a usually specified sphere of activity <a virgin in politics>
5: a female animal that has never copulated

You're talking about meaning #2 while most of us are talking about meaning #4.

[FallenFromGrace]

Just because you are sucking on it or stuffing it up your butt doesn't let you pretend you are a virgin just because you avoided the remaining hole.

.

That's an interesting mental imagine. Stuffing. Hmm.. :eek:

[Choux]

See, in 2008, virgin is not a useful term; it is just a way men classify women.. usually religious men with nothing better to do with their time.

Thoughful women reject all the virgin talk. It is meaningless now because young teen girls are little whores giving oral and much more, yet still having a hymen!! Virgins?

No hymen--*no proof* of never having penis vagina sex. NOT A VIRGIN
Hymen--proof of never having penis vagina sex. VIRGIN

That is the definition I go by for female humans. All the rest is antediluvian, judgemental religious commentary.

[smoothy]

Same here: virgin - Definition from the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

You're talking about meaning #2 while most of us are talking about meaning #4.

outside of a few fairly backward cultures most people don't give a damn if a woman is a virgin or not. If you aren't just say it... don't pretend to be something you aren't.

I've never looked at an adult woman differently because she wasn't.

[smoothy]

See, in 2008, virgin is not a useful term; it is just a way men classify women..usually religious men with nothing better to do with their time.

Thoughful women reject all the virgin talk. It is meaningless now because young teen girls are little whores giving oral, yet still having a hymen!!!

No hymen--*no proof* of never having penis vagina sex.
Hymen--proof of never having penis vagina sex.

That is the definition I go by for female women. All the rest is antediluvian, judgemental religious commentary.

Hymens can stretch and not tear with some women even after repeated sex. So that is no proof in itself. Plus in certain middle eastern cultures young women sleep around then before getting married have their hymen "repaired" to fool the poor SOB on his wedding night (arranged marriage). Yes, I got this from a couple different middle eastern women I know.

[Choux]

Nitpicking.