[talaniman]

Can a non-Christian truly do good in the sight of God? Why or why not?

It doesn't matter if your Christian or not, if you do good, I think God will appreciate it. :) If you don't believe in God, and you still do good, I think he will appreciate that too. At least the God I understand does.

[Donna Mae]

God doesn't want us to be lukewarm, we are either hot or cold. We either believe or we don't believe, there is no in between. If we believe, we do everything for God. If we don't believe, we don't care if God appreciates it or not. At least until the judgement day, and yes there will be a judgement day. Everything we have ever done in our lives will be revealed on that day. Good for God or good for ourselves, it will be there. God is a jealous God. He wants to be first in our lives and I want Him first in my life. I want to go through the narrow gate for wide is the gate that leads to destruction. (Matthew 7:13-14)

[lobrobster]

Lets compare that to something we can relate to. I have faith in my earthly father because I know that he loves me and he does things in my best interest.

With just one very small difference... You have SEEN physical evidence that your earthly father exists! Just a small caveat, don't you think? Now I'll agree that you might be using faith to believe that your earthly father loves you. But I'm assuming you have evidence that he does such as the 'things he has done in your best interest'. This is what's called evidence. When you believe something with no evidence to go on, then it is called faith.

he fact is that the deadliest people in history are atheists.

Ugh, this is such a tired old line used by theists. I'm certainly not going to start a thread on a Christian forum defending atheists. Here's the difference and it's the last I'll say on the matter in this thread. Those atheists didn't kill people because they were atheists! They killed people because of a warped ideology that had nothing to do with whether there is or isn't a god. Atheism is not a belief. It's not a movement. It is the exact opposite. It's a LACK of belief. So it had nothing to do with atheism, but with ideologies such as white supremacy, communism, etc. that are not unlike a religion themselves. To prove my point, name me one wicked deed that could only be performed by an atheist and not a religious person. Now think of a wicked deed that could only be performed in the name of religion and not by an atheist. It's all too easy to think of a latter example.

Someone who believes in a god, even if he does not believe in the True God, may be saved by the True God because that person may be seeking the True God.

Are you sure about this? I don't understand that bit of scripture you quoted as meaning it's OK to worship false gods. In fact, one of the ten commandments clearly states that thou shall have no other gods before me. Also, doesn't Christianity say you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior in order to receive salvation? Are you saying that Christians don't believe Muslims will go to hell? Certainly Protestants do. Again, this is what I mean by interpretation. You guys need to get it straight. If YOU guys don't even understand it, how are we supposed to?

So, do you or don't you believe that God exists?

Technically, you could say I'm agnostic. I think that's the only rational position to have. Those who say they know for sure there is no god are being just as irrational as those who say that they know for sure that there is. The fact is, I do not know for sure that there is no god. But I also do not know for sure there are no such things as invisible fairies. Since the evidence for both is equally non-existent I take the position that it doesn't make much sense to base my life around either existing. The difference between you and I. is that if I were presented evidence that God existed, I would immediately change my position. How could you ever change your position on God when you won't even change it in the face of the very valid scientific theory of evolution! If you had lived a few centuries ago, you'd be among those who fought the idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

If you don't believe God exists, why do you care if someone speaks for Him or not?

Because when Bin Laden spoke for God on 9/11 thousands of Americans died. It can be dangerous. Why can't you understand that?

If you don't believe in God, why do you care if He is pleased by your deeds?

Again, I don't care. I care about people flying planes into our buildings. And people who think that they have a direct line to god and know what pleases Him. These are the people most likely to commit such an act. That's what I care about!

[talaniman]

I think I can leave the salvation of my soul, to the God I understand, and everybody has the God given choice to do whatever they want. May you get the blessings you deserve.

[De Maria]

With just one very small difference... You have SEEN physical evidence that your earthly father exists! Just a small caveat, don't you think?

I have also seen what God has done in my life and it is wonderful to behold.

Now I'll agree that you might be using faith to believe that your earthly father loves you. But I'm assuming you have evidence that he does such as the 'things he has done in your best interest'. This is what's called evidence. When you believe something with no evidence to go on, then it is called faith.

I have plenty of evidence of what God has done for me.

Ugh, this is such a tired old line used by theists. I'm certainly not going to start a thread on a Christian forum defending atheists. Here's the difference and it's the last I'll say on the matter in this thread. Those atheists didn't kill people because they were atheists! They killed people because of a warped ideology that had nothing to do with whether there is or isn't a god. Atheism is not a belief. It's not a movement. It is the exact opposite. It's a LACK of belief. So it had nothing to do with atheism, but with ideologies such as white supremacy, communism, etc. that are not unlike a religion themselves. To prove my point, name me one wicked deed that could only be performed by an atheist and not a religious person. Now think of a wicked deed that could only be performed in the name of religion and not by an atheist. It's all too easy to think of a latter example.

Whatever the reason, the fact remains that atheists are the deadliest people in human history.

Are you sure about this?

Yes, I'm sure:

843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
CCC Search Result - Paragraph # 843

I don't understand that bit of scripture you quoted as meaning it's OK to worship false gods.

I don't either. Did I say it was OK to worship other gods?

In fact, one of the ten commandments clearly states that thou shall have no other gods before me.

Yes, it does.

Also, doesn't Christianity say you have to accept Jesus Christ as your Savior in order to receive salvation?

Some Christians believe that. But the Catholic Church teaches:

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

Are you saying that Christians don't believe Muslims will go to hell?

The Catholic Church teaches:

841 The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330

Certainly Protestants do.

If you want to debate that with Protestants, go to it. I'm Catholic.

Again, this is what I mean by interpretation. You guys need to get it straight. If YOU guys don't even understand it, how are we supposed to?

This from the man who can't seem to decide if he's atheist or agnostic.

Technically, you could say I'm agnostic.

But you talk like an atheist. You continually insist that God doesn't exist, that you have no evidence of His existence and that we should share in your non-belief. Now suddenly, you aren't so sure.

If you are not certain that God exists, shouldn't you hedge your bets?

I think that's the only rational position to have.

One man's opinion. I believe all three are rational positions, belief, non belief and uncertainty. But I believe that belief in God is the most rational because it is based on the best evidence.

In fact, your brand of agnosticism is more irrational than non belief. You proclaim loudly that there is no God, you proclaim loudly that you don't care what He thinks or does, you proclaim loudly all types of accusations against Him and His people. But when all is said and done, you say, "I'm really not certain."

I've met other agnostics who quite rationally behave in conformity with their beliefs. When asked, "If you aren't certain that God exists, why do you go to Church?" They answer, "Precisely because I'm not certain whether God exists. If He does exist, I'm covered."

The Scriptures say,

Ecclesiasticus 19 21 Better is a man that hath less wisdom, and wanteth understanding, with the fear of God, than he that aboundeth in understanding, and transgresseth the law of the most High.

Those who say they know for sure there is no god are being just as irrational as those who say that they know for sure that there is.

Wrong. It is the person who says that he isn't sure if God exists but then acts as though God doesn't exist who is the most irrational of all.

Its very simple. Say you have a lottery ticket in your hand. And you just heard that the winning lottery ticket is held by a person in your town, your neighborhood and your household. Would you throw the lottery ticket away because you don't know if it's the winner?

Well, that's what you are doing. You admit that God might exist but you speak as though He doesn't. And you teach others that He doesn't thereby throwing away any possibility of living in eternity with the Being who can put you there.

There is only one position more irrational than yours, the person who claims to believe in God but acts as though God doesn't exist.

The fact is, I do not know for sure that there is no god. But I also do not know for sure there are no such things as invisible fairies. Since the evidence for both is equally non-existent I take the position that it doesn't make much sense to base my life around either existing. The difference between you and I. is that if I were presented evidence that God existed, I would immediately change my position.

Not really. I was born Catholic, became atheist and now I am Catholic again. Why do you think I became Catholic again? As I said above, I have seen the evidence of God's existence.

The difference between you and I is that I was never agnostic.

How could you ever change your position on God when you won't even change it in the face of the very valid scientific theory of evolution!

Do you want to discuss evolution? Ok, start with this, how did non living matter evolve into living matter? Remember, according to those scientiests who believe in evolution, nothing is true unless it can be reproduced in a laboratory. So please, create some life for me so that I may believe your "theory" of evolution.

If you had lived a few centuries ago, you'd be among those who fought the idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe.

Would I? Catholics were the first to believe that fact. In fact, it is a Catholic who discovered that fact, Copernicus.

So what makes you so sure that I wouldn't believe Copernicus? Maybe I would have been on of his Catholic assistants?

Because when Bin Laden spoke for God on 9/11 thousands of Americans died. It can be dangerous. Why can't you understand that?

And when the Kmer Rouge killed so many millions, they spoke for atheists. Why can't you understand that?

And it is the teachings of Jesus Christ which abhor any such behavior and teach against it. Why can't you understand that?

Again, I don't care. I care about people flying planes into our buildings. And people who think that they have a direct line to god and know what pleases Him. These are the people most likely to commit such an act. That's what I care about!

No, that is what you focus upon when you try to change the subject of a thread. The fact is that atheists are the most dangerous people in history. But apparently you don't care about that.

The original question asked of you was, "If you don't believe in God, why do you care if He is pleased by your deeds?" However, you've now admitted you are an agnostic and not an atheist.

Therefore the new question is this, "Since you believe that God might exist, why do you behave as though you are certain that He doesn't?"

Sincerely,

De Maria

[SkyGem]

Of course a non-Christian can do good, but who you are doing the good for is what makes a Christian and non-Christian different. Are you doing good for your own praise? A Christian does good so that others will praise God. Every good thing is from God. Every good work is for God's glory not ours.
God first, others second, ourselves last.
If we are doing good just for our own glory, it has no value.
God loves everyone. If an atheist saved my loved one I would never be able to thank him enough. Then I would thank God for sending this man to our family. I would know that God sent him to us for a purpose--may be to tell him the good news of Jesus.

Donna Mae, you are exactly right! I am so very glad that you have joined this forum and are participating in this topic. There are many whose eyes are so blinded by what they have been shown or told, perhaps as young children, that they can no longer see the Light of God anymore. It is sad when they make that known here by their words. They must truly think that they were made by a carved stone, the ocean, an animal or perhaps a tree. That is truly sad that they refuse to give the Creator credit for their very life and being. But God continues to watch what they will do and say, giving them every opportunity to Change and Believe.

What I will say to these un-Believers is that they need to see that they are being given an opportunity to Save themselves, and it is tragic not to take it. The weight of their decision will be quite heavy once they are gone from this Earth, and at some point, they will remember those of us who tried to show them The Way by lighting their path towards God. But once they are standing before Him during the judgment, it will be too late to make amends. God is giving each one of these people the chance and the choice to make Now. It is now up to them. But there is truly no middle way. For they are either WITH God or against Him. No amount of talk or trying to get around the issue will convince the Lord that they "may" be with Him unless they either Accept Him openly or reject Him unequivocally. The choice is theirs to make but I pray they make the right choice that will live with them throughout eternity. And especially those who choose to not believe what is being said here, when the time comes, they Will Remember that they had a Choice but willfully decided to take a permanent walk down the wayward path leading away from and opposite to God's Heavenly gates. Fortunate are those who walk with Christ and have accepted Him and whose heart is in Jesus for they will be Saved.

[inthebox]

To the OP:

"Can a non-Christian truly do good in the sight of God? Why or why not?"

The key phrase is "in the sight of God, " and skygem, DeMaria have answered that using the Bible, God's own words.

Can non-believers do good? Sure they can. In my eyes, in the eyes of their fellow human beings, sure, absolutely. But Romans 3:23.

The tricky thing is we don't truly know who is "in the sight of God," only God knows.

Someone taught me this sports analogy.

Belief in Jesus Christ /God as lord and savior is like automatically being on the winning - in the end - football team. You can sit back and produce little fruit and not do much"good."
That is never get off the bench, or you can glorify God's team by participating in deeds and actions.

If you don't believe, you can pass for 500 yards, and do all the good you want, but in the end you are still on the losing team.


God's goodness is that even if I'm a 98 pound weakling I can be on the winning team.
I can be in His presence for all eternity. God gives us that choice. He does not expect you to be a 1000 yard rusher to get on His team.

And lobrobster, it is the cruel god that expects you to be the star quarterback otherwise you get cut. It is the cruel god that expects you to be "good" in thoughts, deeds, actions every second of your life in order to get into Heaven. He knows that in our sinful fallen state that our flesh cannot be "good" every second, and again, His goodness is manifest by His mercy and forgiveness.

And Hell is being separate from God. We have free choice in this matter. Here on earth, in this lifetime, we can see a glimpse of what being separate from God means, it is in the news everyday, all the suffering and tragedy.


And the larger question is... who are we to judge?

For example, a believing alcoholic who struggles daily and has occasional binges may not be "good" in my eyes. But I don't know that a year ago, through God's power, he has stopped beating His wife and driving drunk.

The married faithful businessman in a 3 piece suit may go to church services regularly and tithe and appears "good" better in my eyes, but I don't truly know if He is a believer , or what his motivations are.



Good question kick...

[lobrobster]

And when the Kmer Rouge killed so many millions, they spoke for atheists. Why can't you understand that?

I don't want to hijack this thread, but you keep bringing this up (talk about who likes to change subjects). Kmer Rouge did NOT speak for atheists! He spoke for himself and his warped idea of communism. Seriously, do you even know what atheism MEANS De Maria? On an intellectual level, not your biased assumption of the word. Atheism is simply the rejection of a belief in god. It does NOT forward any new beliefs. Why don't YOU start a thread on the evils of atheism and I'll be glad to respond. Going back through time more people have been burned at the stake and killed in the name of religion than any other reason (including warped communistic ideologies). NO ONE ever committed genocide simply because they didn't think there was a god. They might not have thought there was a god, but that fact had NOTHING to do with their atrocities. They killed for political gain and the fact they might have been atheistic was nothing more than coincidence. The same cannot be said for those who killed in the name of religion. It is no coincidence that the reason fanatical Islam is waging jihad is precisely because of what they believe about their religion. Again, this isn't the place to discuss this and I'm not sure what that place would be on the askme forum. But you are so wrong about this, it's not even funny.

I believe all three are rational positions, belief, non belief and uncertainty.

How can they all be rational? How can it be rational for me to say I know for sure there is no god? I strongly suspect this is the case, but since I cannot prove it, it is irrational to say I know with 100% certainty. It's a simple math problem. And let me guess... You're not very strong in math, are you? If you were, you'd immediately see how ridiculous your above assertion is that all 3 are equally rational.

Not really. I was born Catholic, became atheist and now I am Catholic again.

We have similar backgrounds. I was also brought up a Catholic, but once I became an atheist I stuck with my enlightenment.

Do you want to discuss evolution?

Again, I'm not going to hijack this thread anymore. I WILL start a thread on evolution if you'd like. For now, I'll just respond to this little gem of yours...

Remember, according to those scientiests who believe in evolution, nothing is true unless it can be reproduced in a laboratory. So please, create some life for me so that I may believe your "theory" of evolution.

I really don't mean to be offensive here, but it never ceases to amaze me how indifferent many of you guys are to making utter fools of yourselves. You don't even know the difference between the Theory of Evolution and abiogenesis! When you say, 'most' scientists... Pretty much ALL scientists accept ToE. There are a couple of crackpots in every crowd, but well over 98% of the members of the International Scientists Association accept evolution as fact. Abiogenesis is a different story. That's the question of how life first got started. It has nothing to do with evolution.

Seriously... Read a book on some of these things, or at the very least look into the subject before professing such ignorance about it. I don't mean to be rude, but it's exasperating talking to theists sometimes. You simply parrot creationist literature and it is obvious to any reasonably educated person that you don't know a thing of what you're talking about.

[De Maria]

I don't want to hijack this thread, but you keep bringing this up (talk about who likes to change subjects).

Read the messages. I keep bringing it up IN RESPONSE to your accusations that religious people are the worst killers.

Kmer Rouge did NOT speak for atheists! He spoke for himself and his warped idea of communism. Seriously, do you even know what atheism MEANS De Maria?

I do. Apparently you don't since you kept saying you don't believe in God and suddenly you aren't quite sure.

On an intellectual level, not your biased assumption of the word. Atheism is simply the rejection of a belief in god. It does NOT forward any new beliefs. Why don't YOU start a thread on the evils of atheism and I'll be glad to respond. Going back through time more people have been burned at the stake and killed in the name of religion than any other reason (including warped communistic ideologies). NO ONE ever committed genocide simply because they didn't think there was a god. They might not have thought there was a god, but that fact had NOTHING to do with their atrocities. They killed for political gain and the fact they might have been atheistic was nothing more than coincidence. The same cannot be said for those who killed in the name of religion. It is no coincidence that the reason fanatical Islam is waging jihad is precisely because of what they believe about their religion. Again, this isn't the place to discuss this and I'm not sure what that place would be on the askme forum. But you are so wrong about this, it's not even funny.

False. Atheists have killed more people than all other groups of people in human history combined.

How can they all be rational? How can it be rational for me to say I know for sure there is no god? I strongly suspect this is the case, but since I cannot prove it, it is irrational to say I know with 100% certainty. It's a simple math problem. And let me guess... You're not very strong in math, are you? If you were, you'd immediately see how ridiculous your above assertion is that all 3 are equally rational.

Rational means derived by reason.

# consistent with or based on or using reason; "rational behavior"; "a process of rational inference"; "rational thought"
# intellectual: of or associated with or requiring the use of the mind; "intellectual problems"; "the triumph of the rational over the animal side of man"
# capable of being expressed as a quotient of integers; "rational numbers"
# rational number: an integer or a fraction
# having its source in or being guided by the intellect (distinguished from experience or emotion); "a rational analysis"
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

It has nothing to do with whether one is mistaken or in error. Some people make erroneous decisions, but they base them on reason. Many people who don't believe in God have thought it through and based their decision on their own reason. Many people who are uncertain about God's existence have thought it through and base their decision on their own reason. And so have those who believe in God.

The irrational part begins in claiming they believe one thing and behaving in total contradiction to what they claim they believe.

We have similar backgrounds. I was also brought up a Catholic, but once I became an atheist I stuck with my enlightenment.

Now your atheist again?

Again, I'm not going to hijack this thread anymore. I WILL start a thread on evolution if you'd like. For now, I'll just respond to this little gem of yours...

I already started one. See this thread:
https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/religi...ab-182291.html

I really don't mean to be offensive here, but it never ceases to amaze me how indifferent many of you guys are to making utter fools of yourselves. You don't even know the difference between the Theory of Evolution and abiogenesis! When you say, 'most' scientists... Pretty much ALL scientists accept ToE. There are a couple of crackpots in every crowd, but well over 98% of the members of the International Science Association accept evolution as fact. Abiogenesis is a different story. That's the question of how life first got started. It has nothing to do with evolution.

Sorry Charlie. Unless Science has made a u-turn, Abiogenesis has always been part and parcel of evolutionary theory:

,[9] Charles Darwin made the suggestion that the original spark of life may have begun in a "warm little pond, with all sorts of ammonia and phosphoric salts, lights, heat, electricity, etc. present, so that a protein compound was chemically formed ready to undergo still more complex changes"
Abiogenesis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Seriously... Read a book on some of these things, or at the very least look into the subject before professing such ignorance about it.

I suggest you take your own suggestion.

I don't mean to be rude, but it's exasperating talking to theists sometimes. You simply parrot creationist literature and it is obvious to any reasonably educated person that you don't know a thing of what you're talking about.

I don't mean to be rude either, but the only one proving their ignorance in this discussion is you.

By the way, you neglected to answer the question and you have reverted to atheism. A position which you consider irrational.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[ordinaryguy]

I really don't mean to be offensive here, but....

I don't mean to be rude either, but....

I see this thread rapidly sliding toward closure.

[NeedKarma]

What I will say to these un-Believers is that they need to see that they are being given an opportunity to Save themselves

I don't need saving. Saving from what? Here's an idea, keep your religion as a personal thing. Do you see others here trying to convert you, telling you that you are on the wrong path? Nope, it's just you. I do good for my own sake not because I'm scared of something.

[speechlesstx]

I don't need saving. Saving from what? Here's an idea, keep your religion as a personal thing. Do you see others here trying to convert you, telling you that you are on the wrong path? Nope, it's just you. I do good for my own sake not because I'm scared of something.

You think Christians do good because they're scared of something? I don't think so.

[NeedKarma]

You think Christians do good because they're scared of something? I don't think so.

Yup, salvation, hell, etc.

[speechlesstx]

Let's see if I can throw a monkey wrench in this discussion. The question was "Can a non-Christian truly do good in the sight of God," not can an "unbeliever" do good in the sight of God? If you believe the account of Cornelius in Acts 10 I'd have to say yes, a non-Christian can truly do good in the sight of God.

"Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right."

Am I wrong?

[speechlesstx]

Yup, salvation, hell, etc.

I don't know about anyone else but when I do good for someone it tends to be out of love and compassion, not fear.

[Donna Mae]

I don't know about anyone else but when I do good for someone it tends to be out of love and compassion, not fear.

Me too. Love for God the Father, His Son (our Savior), and the Holy Spirit.

And for me, there is no other way!

[SkyGem]

Me too. Love for God the Father, His Son (our Savior), and the Holy Spirit.

And for me, there is no other way!

Count me in too!! There truly IS No Other Way! God the Father, God the Son (Jesus Christ) and God the Holy Spirit! The Holy Trinity is our ONLY Hope and Our Salvation that comes from God the Son!

[SkyGem]

To the OP:

"Can a non-Christian truly do good in the sight of God? Why or why not?"

The key phrase is "in the sight of God, " and skygem, DeMaria have answered that using the Bible, God's own words.

Can non-believers do good? Sure they can. In my eyes, in the eyes of their fellow human beings, sure, absolutely. But Romans 3:23.
Good question kick...

And let's not forget the following Very Important Scripture concerning un-Believers! The Lord speaks to every Believer who would want to coddle an un-believer who will not change from his/her unrighteous ways.

"Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? And what communion hath Light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? On what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? For ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing, and I will receive you, And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty." -- 2 CORINTHIANS 6:14-18 (KJV)

[Donna Mae]

SkyGem--Very good scripture.

Also Jesus' instructions when He sent the apostles out.

Matthew 10:11-14
"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."

[SkyGem]

SkyGem--Very good scripture.

Also Jesus' instructions when He sent the apostles out.

Matthew 10:11-14
"Whatever town or village you enter, search for some worthy person there and stay at his house until you leave. As you enter the home, give it your greeting. If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town."

Likewise, Wonderful Scripture, Donna Mae! It is a true Blessing to have you here at this forum! Welcome and Praise the Lord Our God whom we LOVE with all of our heart!