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donf · Feb 8, 2008, 01:45 PM

Had! What did I have, that I didn't know I had, but I digress. I'm finally watching the Superball! :)

hkstroud · Feb 8, 2008, 01:50 PM

Yes, push test and reset.

Yes Don, you are now entitle to a 10% raise.

lynx5 · Feb 8, 2008, 01:53 PM

OK after looking at what a GFI looks like on Google I have NONE of those on any outlets in the house.. there's only one GFI and that's on the breaker board itself for the garage. Looks like this is not going to get solved here anyway..

hkstroud · Feb 8, 2008, 02:00 PM

OK, just to make sure push the test and reset on it. There is another exlpanation that does not involve GFI , that's wher we are going next.

donf · Feb 8, 2008, 02:04 PM

Steve, Have had a chance to start the Voltage tests I suggested? Too much has been pulled and put back. Let's get a stick in the ground by making sure the breaker is being fed and it's output is correct.

hkstroud · Feb 8, 2008, 02:23 PM

Steve reread post an see that you have already reset GFI of garage circuit. Sorry.

Don,
Steve confirmed voltage at breaker, see last post on page one.

hkstroud · Feb 8, 2008, 02:24 PM

Steve,

Remember how the old outlet was wired using the little holes in the back. That's an indication that all of you outlets and switches are wired that way. This wiring method can develop shorts over time. These shorts can be at the wire coming into the outlet or in the wire going out of the outlet to the next one. If it is in the wire coming into the outlet the outlet will not work. If it is in the wire going out to the next outlet, that outlet will work but the next one won't. You have to check switches also. To find where the short you can turn off the breaker and find all things that do not work. You then remove these outlets and switches from their boxes and rewire under screws.

Remember because of the number of wires in the boxes, there has to be something else on this circuit.

donf · Feb 8, 2008, 06:34 PM

Steve,

I'm tying to sketch out your circuit from the breaker through to the last item on the circuit.

As I see what I drew, it made no sense to me. Please help me get a clear snapshot of the end to end circuit.

What is the size and amperage rating for the circuit breaker? From the breaker the black wire goes out to a load point, White runs from the Neutral Bus to the first load point.

If the first load point is an outlet, them B/W from the breaker would go to the bottom two connector points. This is the line In pair. If all that is present on the outlet is a B/W pair, then the outlet is at the end of the circuit. However, if there is a second pair of wires leaving the top corrections then we have some more options. Is the outlet a feed to another outlet or switch, If it is going to a switch, then you should see a black piece of tape wrapped around the white wire let me know that presence of tape to signify the whits is no longer being used as a neutral , it is now a Hot line.

Usually you will see on the breaker door, the breaker's number and what is on the circuit controls. We need to step through each load tap on the circuit so that's why I want to start there and build a circuit map.

In the earlier posting I told you to set the VOM at 200 VAC. If you can go up a notch to 600 VAC, that would also be safe. I'm going to try to make some sense out of your configuration while wait on you for the info.

Please do not try to be a hero when asked for voltage reading at the panel, turn off the suspect breaker and the Main Power before removing the breaker once, I'd also like the know the Voltage and Amperage ratting of the old breaker.

Even though you have the main panel power off, remember you are still in a quick kill or maim area, so don't do anything inside that box unless you are sure of what you are of what you are doing. Get the amperage readings by reading the value off the breaker handle. Voltage readings will require you to use the meter with the black probe attached to common and the bed lead to the point you are testing,

In the mean time, I'll continue to try the sketch the circuit and we can see just how close we are, Receptacles can be designated as R1/R/2 Switches as S1 or S2, overhead lights as L1/L2. Clear enough?

Since you have already removed

donf · Feb 8, 2008, 07:37 PM

What do we know at this point?

We know that according too Steve, the questioned breaker is supplying 120 VAC.
We know that Steve believes that the outlet he is working on is dead.
We know there there are several other switches are also dead.
We know that Steve believes the outlet is a direct connect back to the breaker.

We can easily test this for continuity simply by removing one black line from the outlet and either use a continuity tester or Resistance reading from the black wire to the bare wire ground at the outlet. If its open, Steve can test with the other black lead.

If both yield an open condition, then we know for sure either the wires from the outlet have a open or there is something else downstream of the receptacle that Steve has not found yet, correct? If one yield continuity, then we know that the black is probably a home run wire and we can run the tests again using the white wires. Once we find the correct pair of wires back to the panel block, Then we can disconect the white wires and complete the wring out until we have the correct black/white paring. Now we go back to the panel box and turn main power off connect the white lead to its position in the neutral bus bar. Leave the wires at the fist outlet open, connect the black lead to the white wire, the red lead to the black lead, turn the breaker on and verify that the Circuit Breaker is now sending 120 VAC to the outlet. From there, turn the breaker off, install the remaining black /white pair into the top of the outlet, run on the beaker and see if the voltage holds at outlet and the rest of the loads along the circuit are also working.

Bob, I know we could just use voltage tests on OL #1, but I'd rather know for sure that the wires are correctly matched. Do you think the process is worthy of a try or can you come up with a better process?

lynx5 · Feb 9, 2008, 07:41 AM

Yeah hmm I don't know cause NONE of them are working.. and its an important to note once again I only fiddled with one of them. Now all 4 are completely dead.. black to white, black to ground, white to ground everything is registering 0 volts on that cirucit (sometimes 0.01) that's it. And there are no GFI's I've looked in all bathrooms etc.. So I'm not sure what else it could be. Any other KISS possibilities?

Originally Posted by hkstroud

Steve,

Remember how the old outlet was wired using the little holes in the back. That’s an indication that all of you outlets and switches are wired that way. This wiring method can develop shorts over time. These shorts can be at the wire coming into the outlet or in the wire going out of the outlet to the next one. If it is in the wire coming into the outlet the outlet will not work. If it is in the wire going out to the next outlet, that outlet will work but the next one won’t. You have to check switches also. To find where the short you can turn off the breaker and find all things that do not work. You then remove these outlets and switches from their boxes and rewire under screws.

Remember because of the number of wires in the boxes, there has to be something else on this circuit.

tkrussell · Feb 9, 2008, 08:15 AM

I am sorry if I am rude, but this should not be this hard to trace and repair.

Using a voltage tester, and assuming you know exactly which circuit breaker feeds the circuit or outlet that has no power, begin at the breaker. Test across the black wire connected to the breaker and the neutral bar, (bar with all white wires), and if the breaker is working you will measure 120 volts.

Now trace this wire to the cable leaving the panelboard to the next junction box or outlet, again test across the black and white looking for 120 volts.

Continue onto each junction box, outlet box, etc in the circuit, each time looking for 120 volts on the voltage tester when testing across the black and white.

You will come across a point there is a loose connection, or a GFI that is tripped, that will show no voltage. Back up a bit an see voltage, you have now found the location the voltage is stopped because the circuit is broken.

Here, and at any outlet not working, a voltage reading should be taken across the black hot wire and the equipment ground. If you now see 120 volts, then this will prove that the white neutral wire is the portion of the circuit that is broken or open.

While there is always a possibility a wire is broken in a section of cable, that is highly unlikely, but this test will find it also.

If you do not know which breaker feeds the outlets not working, then your only choice is to follow the cable from the outlet with no power back to the panel, doing the same test, just in reverse, until you find 120 volts.

I do not recommend that any DIY'er use a continuity test on house wiring, as this really requires you to understand the circuit completely. A continuity test must always have the power completely off to the circuit, and each appliance , light bulb, any load at all must be disconnected or removed from the circuit. If even one light bulb remains on the circuit, a continuity test will read through the light bulb and give you a false reading.

If voltage is left on while doing a continuity test, once the test is done on live wires, the tester will be damaged and injury will come to the person holding the tester.

lynx5 · Feb 9, 2008, 09:01 AM

Ok thanks, I just thought I would ask this question before I proceed as I felt insecure about doing it.. as I'm not 100% sure which circuit breaker this is on. Is it safe/ok to test each circuit breaker against the white netural bar even if the wire going into some of the breaker's are white or red and not always black. (I was wanting to test every cirucit breaker) just wanted to make sure this is OK and indeed safe. Thanks.
Steve.

Originally Posted by tkrussell

I am sorry if I am rude, but this should not be this hard to trace and repair.

Using a voltage tester, and assuming you know exactly which circuit breaker feeds the circuit or outlet that has no power, begin at the breaker. Test across the black wire connected to the breaker and the neutral bar, (bar with all white wires), and if the breaker is working you will measure 120 volts.

Now trace this wire to the cable leaving the panelboard to the next junction box or outlet, again test across the black and white looking for 120 volts.

Continue onto each junction box, outlet box, etc in the circuit, each time looking for 120 volts on the voltage tester when testing across the black and white.

You will come across a point there is a loose connection, or a GFI that is tripped, that will show no voltage. Back up a bit an see voltage, you have now found the location the voltage is stopped because the circuit is broken.

Here, and at any outlet not working, a voltage reading should be taken across the black hot wire and the equipment ground. If you now see 120 volts, then this will prove that the white neutral wire is the portion of the circuit that is broken or open.

While there is always a possibility a wire is broken in a section of cable, that is highly unlikely, but this test will find it also.

If you do not know which breaker feeds the outlets not working, then your only choice is to follow the cable from the outlet with no power back to the panel, doing the same test, just in reverse, until you find 120 volts.

I do not recommend that any DIY'er use a continuity test on house wiring, as this really requires you to understand the circuit completely. A continuity test must always have the power completely off to the circuit, and each appliance , light bulb, any load at all must be disconnected or removed from the circuit. If even one light bulb remains on the circuit, a continuity test will read thru the light bulb and give you a false reading.

If voltage is left on while doing a continuity test, once the test is done on live wires, the tester will be damaged and injury will come to the person holding the tester.

tkrussell · Feb 9, 2008, 09:18 AM

Not sure I understand correctly. To test each breaker, hold and keep one voltage tester lead on the neutral bar, and use the other lead to test each breaker.

I must say, if you are the slightest unsure of anything while working in a live panelboard, do not do anything and call in a pro.

There is no room for error while working on a live panel.

lynx5 · Feb 9, 2008, 09:20 AM

Yeah I was just wondering cause some breaker's have white wires coming into them or red.

Is it OK to test breaker(white) to netural bar(also white).. or breaker(red) to netural bar(white)

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Not sure I understand correctly. To test each breaker, hold and keep one voltage tester lead on the neutral bar, and use the other lead to test each breaker.

lynx5 · Feb 9, 2008, 09:22 AM

Your right. I think its time to bite the bullet on this one. Since ALL circuits are 100% dead. Its just discouraging cause I have more re-wiring to do and since I don't know what this partiuclar problem is.. its preventing me from finishing my job in fear that it could happen again.

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Not sure I understand correctly. To test each breaker, hold and keep one voltage tester lead on the neutral bar, and use the other lead to test each breaker.

I must say, if you are the slightest unsure of anything while working in a live panelboard, do not do anything and call in a pro.

There is no room for error while working on a live panel.

tkrussell · Feb 9, 2008, 09:25 AM

OK a white wire coming off a breaker can be one of two reasons, one, most likely is a two pole breaker feeding a 240 volt load, heater, dryer, range, etc. Here is where you will read 120 volts to neutral, and 240 volts across both poles of the two pole breaker.

Any white wire connected to a breaker for the purpose of a 240 volt load now gets re-marked as a hot wire by using colored tape.

You may have a single pole breaker that can be GFI or an AFCI breaker, in which case this is a neutral wire that connects to the breaker before getting connected to the neutral bar with a "pigtail".

Either of these breakers will have a "TEST" button.

tkrussell · Feb 9, 2008, 09:26 AM

Now I really don't get it.

You went from a couple of outlets that were dead to all circuits are dead?

lynx5 · Feb 9, 2008, 09:28 AM

Sorry I wasn't being clear. All outlets (3)/light switches (1) on that 1 circuit are ALL completely dead.

But the reading on that circuit breaker itself is 120 volts. (pretty sure Ive got the right breaker as we know what every other breaker does.)

There are no GFI's.

So the problem has to be in the wiring through the wall Im guessing? But Ive never ripped out a cable box to find out how that all connects there and its not like I can test it in the wall anyway it won't be bare wire.

Originally Posted by tkrussell

Now I really don't get it.

You went from a couple of outlets that were dead to all circuits are dead?

tkrussell · Feb 9, 2008, 09:34 AM

OK Whew... I thoght everything was falling apart on you.

Look, all there is will be a loose, broken, or corroded connection someplace. Since this all began when you started changing devices, seems to me that one of the devices you worked on is a bad connection, and you need to work your way back on the circuit looking for this broken connection, which can be one of may reason.

If you found or used any of the push in the back connections on any device, those are popular for causing bad connections. Any push in the back connection should be changed to a wrap around the screw terminal connection, for reliability.

You may have disturbed a splice unknowingly, that was bad or loose before you got there, and now is worse and causing an open circuit.

lynx5 · Feb 9, 2008, 09:50 AM

K I understand that, I'm just confused when you say work you way back looking for where there's a broken connection.. cause all outlets are broken I can work from one outlet to the next but there all broken anyway so where excatly am I testing the wires at to find something live?. sorry little confused there..

I did find one splice in a black wire that I secured with eletrical tape.. haven't been able to spot anymore..

Originally Posted by tkrussell

OK Whew....I thoght everything was falling apart on you.

Look, all there is will be a loose, broken, or corroded connection someplace. Since this all began when you started changing devices, seems to me that one of the devices you worked on is a bad connection, and you need to work your way back on the circuit looking for this broken connection, which can be one of may reason.

If you found or used any of the push in the back connections on any device, those are popular for causing bad connections. Any push in the back connection should be changed to a wrap around the screw terminal connection, for reliability.

You may have disturbed a splice unknowingly, that was bad or loose before you got there, and now is worse and causing an open circuit.