[orange]

Yes I know that argument Rick and it's a good one, but I can't help thinking that there could be a number 4... that they lived a long time ago, in the days before science and technology, and believed in the supernatural / miracles a lot easier than people do now, because their world was so limited. That doesn't make them crazy or liars, but more naïve, if that's the right word? Anyway thanks for responding so quickly to my post!

[RickJ]

I would call your option #4 the same as delusional.

I do not believe that people, in general, were more gullable - or less intellegent - then, than they are now.

[nymphetamine]

Okay a question. Gods son name is Jesus but I never hear God called anything but God. What is his actual name or is that another mystery Ill have to investigate? Does it say in the bible?

[orange]

I would call your option #4 the same as delusional.

I do not believe that people, in general, were more gullable - or less intellegent - then, than they are now.

Well I don't think they were more gullible or less intelligent, either... but I do think their world was a lot smaller than ours. I mean, for example, people in a primitive society might think TV was witchcraft, or if they saw an airplane in the sky they might think it was giant flying bird or a sign from God. It's not that they're stupid, they've just had a different experience than us. On the flip side of things, maybe that was good for them because they had a lot less doubt and temptation.

[RickJ]

Okay a question. Gods son name is Jesus but I never hear God called anything but God. What is his actual name or is that another mystery Ill have to investigate? Does it say in the bible?

There are many "names" for God.

Here are two interesting articles:

http://www.ldolphin.org/Names.html

http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=220

[orange]

Okay a question. Gods son name is Jesus but I never hear God called anything but God. What is his actual name or is that another mystery Ill have to investigate? Does it say in the bible?

Well God apparently has a real name... YHVH... yud hey vov hey in Hebrew (there are no vowels)... but I was taught as a Jew that you're not to say it out loud. Christians do say it out loud, though... or an interpretation of it at least, adding vowels to make it "Yahweh". He's also called Jehovah, and some other things too that I can't recall right now. Hopefully Rick can help you, if he's not sick of this thread right now that is! ;)

Oops he already answered... thanks Rick. I will check out the links too.

[nymphetamine]

Cool sites. I feel for that dude. That is a lot of names. Imagine when he has to sign his name to stuff.

[orange]

cool sites. I feel for that dude. That is a lot of names. Imagine when he has to sign his name to stuff.

LMAO!! You should be a commedian, you always say such good funny things! :)

[jduke44]

I am a Christian

1) I do not believe in the Darwinian evolution

2) I haven't heard any logical reason to believe the gap theory.

3)I haven't heard any other logical reason to believe in anything but the 6 days being a 24 hour period.


The reason for #2 and #3 being "heard" is because, to be honest, I don't go through the millions and millions of research it requires to figure all this out in the hebrew and poosibly in the greek. I do, like many others, have to rely on pastors and others who do this research to help me sift out all the bull and take the things that are actual truth.

[rkim291968]

so what are you now?

I am not religious at all although I believe in God's existence as the creator of universe.

[phildebenham]

1 for me. I used to be a Christian but no longer.

Tell me why?

[phildebenham]

Let me add some Scriptural references.

1. Christ's words
"that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day" (2 Pet. 3:8; cf. Ps. 90:4)

2. light was created on the first day, but the sun was not created till the fourth day (Gen. 1:3, 16),

3. Adam was told he would die the same "day" as he ate of the tree, yet he lived to be 930 years old (Gen. 2:17, 5:5).

No, these things do not address the issue specifically, but show how difficult things would be if we took every jot and tittle literally...

1. You cannot use the greek word for "day" to interpret the hebrew word for "day." Also, the last part of the verse cancels out the first part of the verse if you are trying to apply it to Genesis 1. This verse in no way applies.

2. The sun is not needed for light. God spoke and there was light. God did not need the sun.

3. The Hebrew word for day can mean a longer period (but it can't mean millions of years), but it can also mean "day." In fact that is it's main meaning. After Genesis 1 every time the word day is used with the words "morning and evening" it means a 24 hour day. Every time it is used with either "moring" or "evening" it means a 24 hour day. Every time it is used with a number it means a 24 hour day. Now look back to Genesis 1. What do we see? Morning, evening, number, day; morning, evening, number, day; morning, evening, number, day... I don't think God could have mad it much clearer.

4. Why do you doubt that God means exactly what He says in Genesis 1? Is it because "science" has "proved" the cosmos is billions of years old?

[rkim291968]

Tell me why?

Growing up, I ended up going to a Christian school and was told/taught to be one. As I grew older and studied various aspects of Christianity in earnest, I began to doubt. Then, like many others have seen before me, I saw hypocritical side of Church and churchgoers. In almost every church I went to, there have been some form of power struggle over the control of church or money or both. I've seen ministers ending up abusing children (a 45 year old married minister running away with 14 year old girl, etc). I've seen churches which became more of a social function organization than a place of worship - a money making factory rather than a place to gather and worship. It really turned me off and finally pushed me over to the other side.

I guess I didn't have strong faith to start with before things pushed me over.

[orange]

Growing up, I ended up going to a Christian school and was told/taught to be one. As I grew older and studied various aspects of Christianity in earnest, I began to doubt. Then, like many others have seen before me, I saw hypocritical side of Church and churchgoers. In almost every church I went to, there have been some form of power struggle over the control of church or money or both. I've seen ministers ending up abusing children (a 45 year old married minister running away with 14 year old girl, etc). I've seen churches which became more of a social function organization than a place of worship - a money making factory rather than a place to gather and worship. It really turned me off and finally pushed me over to the other side.
I guess I didn't have strong faith to start with before things pushed me over.

I know what you mean, rkim... as an adult I was in a born-again Christian church for 2 years, but then our pastor was accused of stealing money from the church and being inappropriate with young girls. The charges were never proven, but the church split, with half of the people going with the pastor and the other half starting another church. I had friends on both sides of the fight, but people with very spiteful and "un-Christian" with each other after the split, and I was expected to choose a side. Some "friends" stopped speaking to me because I went to the side of the church that they disapproved. Finally I just couldn't stand all the fighting and hatred so I just left.

This kind of thing happens in all religions, and with organizations in general, but it sure turns you off everything! I have no desire to go anywhere at this point.

[phildebenham]

I never take offense to one disagreeing with me :D


You and I are in full agreement there.


It's not that I believe Genesis "is not to be taken literally", it's just that I recognize that there are many different types of writings in the Bible: Poetry, Parable, History, Genealogy, Illustrations, Alliterations, Similie, Metaphor, etc... so recognize that it is not every author's attempt, in every single section, to give a historic factual account of something.

I am firmly convinced that God could have created the Universe in six 24-hour periods...but if I take that literally, then I should also be able to take literally the timeline from Creation to Noah, and the genealogy from Noah to Christ...and therefore put creation at only about 6000 years old.

I do believe that the laws of nature that we observe (which, yes, were "set up" by God) show that the Universe is much, much older than this.

...so if that is true, then there must be something about the creation story - or the timeline - that must not be literal.

That, really, would be the "short version" of my answer.

Am I making sense?

Genesis is a history book. That is the way it is quoted numerous times, even by Jesus Himself, in the New Testament. It should be understood as Jesus understood it, don't you think?

6000 to about 1000 years old (accounting for genealogical gaps). What makes you think it is older than that?

What "laws of nature" show that the universe is much, much older than this? In truth, there are none.

[phildebenham]

Growing up, I ended up going to a Christian school and was told/taught to be one. As I grew older and studied various aspects of Christianity in earnest, I began to doubt. Then, like many others have seen before me, I saw hypocritical side of Church and churchgoers. In almost every church I went to, there have been some form of power struggle over the control of church or money or both. I've seen ministers ending up abusing children (a 45 year old married minister running away with 14 year old girl, etc). I've seen churches which became more of a social function organization than a place of worship - a money making factory rather than a place to gather and worship. It really turned me off and finally pushed me over to the other side.

I guess I didn't have strong faith to start with before things pushed me over.

I see. You are one of the walking wounded.

You went to a Christian school, but that does not make you a Christian.
You went to church, but that does not make you a Christian.
You saw a lot of garbage from those who, like you, claimed to be Christian, but claiming to be Christian does not make you (or them) a Christian.

Christianity is not between you and the church, school, or ministers. Christianity is a relationship between you and God through Jesus Christ. You have tried "churchianity." Perhaps it's time to give God a try?

In Love,

Phil Debenham

[rkim291968]

I know what you mean, rkim... as an adult I was in a born-again Christian church for 2 years, but then our pastor was accused of stealing money from the church and being inappropriate with young girls. The charges were never proven, but the church split, with half of the people going with the pastor and the other half starting another church. I had friends on both sides of the fight, but people with very spiteful and "un-Christian" with each other after the split, and I was expected to choose a side. Some "friends" stopped speaking to me because I went to the side of the church that they disapproved. Finally I just couldn't stand all the fighting and hatred so I just left.

This kind of thing happens in all religions, and with organizations in general, but it sure turns you off everything! I have no desire to go anywhere at this point.

Yeah, it happens too often. Perhaps, we went to a same church. :D

[rkim291968]

Christianity is a relationship between you and God through Jesus Christ.

I agree. Now if only Churchgoers believe that, we won't have too much hypocrisy associated with Christianity. (I didn't mean to sound bitter - I am not. Pardon my wording in advance.)

[talaniman]

:cool:

Genesis is a history book. That is the way it is quoted numerous times, even by Jesus Himself, in the New Testament. It should be understood as Jesus understood it, don't you think?

6000 to about 1000 years old (accounting for geneological gaps). What makes you think it is older than that?

What "laws of nature" show that the universe is much, much older than this? In truth, there are none.

How do you account for the millions of fossils that have been found through out the world and the human skulls of extinct people,the cave drawings? These are real and they tell a story spanning millions of years.Everything I've seen points to Good Orderly Direction to get us to the point we are now.As humans we can believe anything we want,but to ignore that which is front of us just because we can't explain it, is to miss valuable information to make an informed opinion.God could have just as easily design this whole thing through methods only He could know and our human minds cannot even grasp the wonders of what has been done.I don't know how it was done but I believe He done it!?

[phildebenham]

:cool:
How do you account for the millions of fossils that have been found thru out the world and the human skulls of extinct people,the cave drawings? These are real and they tell a story spanning millions of years.Everything I've seen points to Good Orderly Direction to get us to the point we are now.As humans we can believe anything we want,but to ignore that which is front of us just because we can't explain it, is to miss valuable information to make an informed opinion.God could have just as easily design this whole thing thru methods only He could know and our human minds cannot even grasp the wonders of what has been done.I don't know how it was done but I believe He done it!!??!

Fossils are deposited in layers throughout the world. Paleontologist and Geologists will tell you that these are proof that the earth is billions of years old. It is not proof. Where the Evolutionist and the Creationist will agree is with the facts. There are fossils and human skulls of dead (not extinct) people, and cave drawings. How these facts came to be back before we were around is where we disagree. The evolutionist reads these facts through evolution lensed glasses. They assume evolution to be a fact and therefore bring their bias to the facts. The creationist does the same thing with creation lensed glasses. However, the creationist model fits the facts and the evolution model does not. We have millions of dead things buried in layers deposited by water all over the earth. If there were a global flood as we find in Genesis, what would you expect to find? Answer: Millions of dead things buried in layers deposited by water all over the earth. Now you have stated that these things tell a story spanning millions of years. How do you know that? Where did you come up with "millions of years?"

Yes, "God could have just as easily design this whole thing thru methods only He could know and our human minds cannot even grasp the wonders of what has been done," but He didn't. He has told us how He did it in Genesis and everything in Genesis fits the facts we observe in the world. How is it that you can believe that God created but could not easily communicate to us how that was done?