[TKP]

My wife and I purchased a home this year that is 94" in length. I installed a new 50gal water heater in the laundry room which is in the opposite end of house from the batahing areas. (It was where the original wsa installed.) My question is, since I am lossing money on water being wasted (the water running through the faucets until hot water arrives at the point of use) could a small water be installed in series with the main water heater only closer to the points of use? I have plenty of room to install a small 10gal or 20gal tank in my crawl space near my bathing areas. That way, I thought I would get hot water more quickly, actually reduce my water bill and although I will be increasing my electric bill to a degree, I might be actually saving in the long run.

I look forward to your advise!
Thanks!
:O)
Tom

[Lotta]

Do you have pipe insulation on the water pipes coming from the water heater ?

[labman]

What you might do is to instal a small heater fed by the cold water and only connected to the lavatories. Thus the small amounts of water you use to wash your hands would be heated once and delivered to the sink without running 10 times as much as you use down the sink before it gets warm. The shower, washer, and other large volume users would still be connected to the main water tank. You could also look at tankless heater. To really save anything, they must be located near the point of use. They also require much heavier wiring than a small point of use tank.

I don't think the tankless heaters live up to their hype. Our hot water heating bills are much less that the estimates used to justify the tankless heaters. However, the convenience of having hot water where you use it is a big factor. I am thinking of adding a small point of use tank near our one bath.

[speedball1]

My wife and I purchased a home this year that is 94" in length. I installed a new 50gal water heater in the laundry room which is in the opposite end of house from the batahing areas. (It was where the original wsa installed.) My question is, since I am lossing money on water being wasted (the water running throught the faucets until hot water arrives at the point of use) could a small water be installed in series with the main water heater only closer to the points of use? I have plenty of room to install a small 10gal or 20gal tank in my crawl space near my bathing areas. That way, I thought I would get hot water more quickly, actually reduce my water bill and although I will be increasing my electric bill to a degree, I might be actually saving in the long run.

I look forward to your advise!
Thanks!
:O)
Tom

Hey Tom,
I've been after builders for years to run a recirculating line from the water heater to the farthest point in a house which is usually the master bath and give the buyer the option of adding a recirculating pump. While I have installed 17 gallon trailer heaters in series with the hot water supply with good luck I believe a more cost effective way would be to loop a 1/2" line from the master bath to the attic and back to the heater with a recirculating pump. Your electric bill will be much less that way, the installation cost will be less and it will nottake up as much space as a heater. This is a win-win situation in my book. Your thoughts? Cheers, Tom

[Lotta]

Article found on another site

Hot Water Recirculating Pumps
By Tim Carter
© Tim Carter 1993-2005


Summary: Gravity return loops can be installed to supply hot water to all your fixtures. Hot water recirculation pumps will please your whole family.

DEAR TIM: It takes about 30 seconds for hot water to reach my shower each morning. It is frustrating to wait that long. Is it possible to have hot water within a second or two after I turn on the valve? I have seen different recirculating systems that promise hot water instantly and they talk about huge energy and water savings. Is this true? Is there a way to get hot water using simple gravity instead of a pump? Chad G. Birmingham, AL

DEAR CHAD: Many people wait for hot water just as you do each morning. A similar thing happens when people operate other sinks, dishwashers and washing machines. Fortunately this problem can be solved one of two ways depending upon how your plumbing system is designed. Keep in mind that the work to achieve your goal is not something the average do-it-yourselfer can tackle. What's more, certain cities and states have strict regulations with respect to modifications made to water supply systems that are connected to public water systems. Be sure to call your local plumbing inspector before you cut into your piping system.


This cool pump connects to your water line just above your water heater. You will need an electrical outlet to be installed nearby. Do not use an extension cord to power the pump.
Clean water is a valuable natural resource and it should not be wasted. The trouble is, in many localities, water is a very cheap commodity. When prices are low, people tend to waste. For example, a cubic foot of water costs me just a little over 1.6 cents. There is a very good possibility that you waste less than a tenth of a cubic foot of water each morning. To prove this, assume that there is 25 linear feet of three quarter inch piping between your shower faucet and water heater. Do the math and you will find out that there is just .076 cubic feet of water inside the water pipe. To waste one dollar's worth of water, one would have to take over 800 showers.

To get instant hot water as you often find at hotels and other institutions, you need to have a loop in the piping system that circulates hot water back to the water heater. Most houses do not have a loop as the hot water pipe typically dead ends at the plumbing fixture that is farthest away from the heater. It is possible to install an effective return loop in single story houses that have a basement or crawl space where the water supply pipes are visible below the floor joists. Two story houses make this task nearly impossible, as the piping system is typically hidden in the walls of the home.


But you don't have to install a return loop if you choose to use a modern recirculating pump system. These products employ a nifty temperature actuated by-pass valve that connects the cold and hot water supply lines at the fixture that is farthest away from the water heater. The bypass valve uses the cold water line as the return loop back to the water heater.

Not all recirculating pump systems are the same. One system places the pump under the sink at the farthest fixture. You have to push a button to start the pump. The trouble with this system is that you still have to wait for hot water. What's more, this pump needs high voltage electric to operate. It can be a huge challenge to install an outlet under a sink.

Another system activates a remote pump that can be near the water heater. The trouble with this system is that it pumps water through the system whenever the temperature drops at the activation valve. This system wastes energy dollars as it pumps hot water while you sleep and are away.

Perhaps the best pump system is one that has a temperature controlled by-pass valve under the farthest fixture sink and a timer on a pump that can be conveniently located adjacent to the water heater. The timer can be set to go on and off at 15 minute intervals depending upon when you feel you need hot water at the fixtures. The pump is equipped with a handy extension cord that can be plugged into a convenience outlet near the pump. There is no water waste with this pump and it also minimizes energy waste since it only sends hot water into the water supply lines during the programmed times.

Gravity hot water recirculating loops that do not require a pump can sometimes be installed after a house is built. They will only work when the water heater is below the water supply lines. This system requires that the hot water line return back to the heater after it services the farthest fixture. The return line connects to the bottom of the water heater at the drain valve. Natural convection drives the system. Energy loss is a minimum if you insulate the entire hot water loop except for the last 15 feet of pipe as it re-enters the water heater.

-----------------------

[Fr_Chuck]

They make some gas fired point of use heaters that work really great.

The tankless heaters work on the same principle that hot water pressure waters use. The distance in the pipe from the heater to the outlet will not be heated and it takes a few seconds for it to start warming up.

And of course a small tank heater at point of use will give you that almost instant hot water also.

Or as we say here in the mountains of TN, hot water , that is in the pot on the stove.

[labman]

I have looked at gas fired tankless water heaters. Trouble is, you have to run gas pipe, and then vent it. The unit may not be very large, but they have huge clearance requirements. I couldn't fit one in the same crawl space as my furnace.

[Fr_Chuck]

They have some fairly small gas heaters that do not require venting for point of use. ( I saw the ones at Home Depo about two years ago)

I redid the entire plumbing in my mother in laws home about 8 year ago.
So I spent untold time thre researching a lot of the heaters.

But you will need gas lines ran for them.

The smaller tanks ( I have seen some small enough to fit under the sink)

We ended up going electric and added a heat pump also to completely go electric. Of course that winter we had a power outage so I ended up buying a generator also. ( some good things about gas heat, it works when the power goes out.

[James W. Acker]

Your Idea of adding a second water heater would depend on several things:

First how far would it be from you Lavotory to the spot that you would install a second water heater?

Second how far would you have to run electricity to get power to the
Second water heater?

How easy would it be to run two small copper tubbings fron under your lavorty to the second water heater.

If all of these things would be within reason then I think that would be the most practiacal way to get hot water to your lavatory.

What I would do is buy is a small electric water heater, either a 3, 6. 9 gallon tank, that uses 120 volts of power to operate. Cut the hot water supply under the lavatory and run that directly to the water heater and then run a return line back to the other end of the pipe you cut under the lavavoty. This would send heated water from your 50 gallon water heater to the small second water heater, that would force the heated water from the second heater out of the lavatory faucet. This in my opinion is not going to save you any money but at least you will have the convience of having instant hot water at the lavatory. You would be heating the water twice, which you are doing now, but you would not be wasting the water.

[Fr_Chuck]

There is something new out, not sure the details but they call it "instant heat" it has a return line to the heater and somehow it is suppose to give you hot water within a second or two, I have not used it, or even seen it for real, but I did see an article in one of the home repair magizine.

[dherman1]

The Gas Fired tankless water heaters are wonderful. However, they require a large amount of gas to them. Some are over 200,000 BTU's.

We looked into them as we are building an addition on our home that will include an enlarged master bathroom with a whirlpoot tub. The plumber said that a tankless water heater would work but, we would need to replumb all of our gas appliances as the type of gas supply we have wouldn't feed all that we wanted to do. I guess we have a low pressure supply system.

The plumber recommended that we install a recirculating line instead. It is plumbed into the hot water pipe at the tub and runs back to the hot water heaters flush out valve. The plumber said that we probably won't need to pump it as it will act as a close convection loop. (Hot water is lighter so it rises and as it cools off, it will get heavier and then drop back down the line to the HWH. )

Another alternative is to use an electric point of use hot water heater. (COSTCO has one, here is the link to it http://www.costco.com/Browse/Product...114*1240*4311*
Good luck, Dan

[TKP]

I just wanted to say "THANKS" to everyone that responded to my question! I received some helpful replies and ideas. I appreciate those of you that shared either your wisdom and/or your experience.
:O)
Tom

[JohnInMyDoe]

What a huge house! I would install a 200 gallon tank in the back 20", and you should still have room for your tiny, little, inline, water heater. All of this should only take 30", so you still have a good 64" for a reasonable sized television. Cheers.