[lobrobster]

There's been much talk about whether it's OK to allow prayer in public schools, but very little discussion on the purpose of it, or the reasons Christians feel it's so important. The fact is, generations of people have gone through our public school systems without ever praying in class and seem no worse for it.

So I'm curious why prayer in public schools is such an important issue for some Christians. Specifically, if you feel it's important that your child pray each day, why do you feel it should be done in school? Why not at home, before or after school? Wouldn't your home be a much better environment for productive prayer? And if prayer is so important for kids in school, what about adults at work? Should we try to mandate prayer in the workplace while we're at it? You might think I'm trying to be funny, but I'm not. Prayer doesn't stop at a certain age. If anything I would think prayer becomes more important as an adult. So if prayer in public places is so important for children each day, then it can't be too bad for adults either.

Also, is it spiritual reflection that you're after? Or does it have to be denominational prayer? Would it be OK if the kids took turns? One day reciting a Christian prayer, one day an Islamic prayer, and so on, until all the different denominations of children had their prayer recited in class? Or are you just interested in getting YOUR prayer placed in public schools?

Lastly, since public schools are in varying ethnic communities, some of them no doubt will have a majority of non-Christians. In these cases, I'm assuming you're OK with Christian children saying an Islamic prayer daily (if Islam is the majority of that particular school). Or would you be against this?

My own opinion (for those who don't already know), is that you should make time at home for your child to pray. To someone like me, it seems as though you're simply too lazy or disorganized yourselves to make sure your kids pray every day. So you want to put it off on the public schools (at the expense of all the kids who aren't Christian), to do your job for you.

Hey, I'm just being honest and calling it like I see it. If you're religious, I certainly see why it's very important to you that your kids pray every day. But it's YOUR job to teach the importance of prayer to your kids and to make sure they do it. Not a teacher's!

[Fr_Chuck]

American schools were based and estabished by the Christian Church. In fact for many years the only schools in america and all colleges were church schools, there were no public schools what so ever.

And of course at the distain and about 100 posts saying I am wrong, America was founded and based as a Christian nation under God, but with the freedom of other religions to worship as they will ( and of course with many restrictions)

So I guess the real question is why it was ever taken out to start with and what their motives were.

And of course no, to pray to another God for a Christian would never be allowed. Remember most christians do not view the god of Islam as a real god but rather what used to be a moon god.

But the real issue is that a school should not ( and still legally can not) stop a student from merely praying, they have to even allow meetings for students when they are student lead.

[De Maria]

There's been much talk about whether it's OK to allow prayer in public schools, but very little discussion on the purpose of it or the reasons Christians feel it's so important.

Simply put, we are Christians, we have a right to worship as we please and our Scriptures are explicit:

Exodus 13 9 And it shall be as a sign in thy hand, and as a memorial before thy eyes: and that the law of the Lord be always in thy mouth, for with a strong hand the Lord hath brought thee out of the land of Egypt.

Luke 18 1 And he spoke also a parable to them, that we ought always to pray, and not to faint,

The fact is, generations of people have gone through our public school systems without ever praying in class and seem no worse for it.

We believe it has affected generations of people negatively.

So I'm curious why prayer in public schools is such an important issue for some Christians. Specifically, if you feel it's important that your child pray each day, why do you feel it should be done in school? Why not at home, before or after school?

Did anyone say, pray at school so they don't have to pray at home. We believe OUR children should pray at school because they are Christian and they should also obey God in school as they do out of school.

If our children are not permitted to pray, our right to worship which is guaranteed by the Constitution is severely impeded.

Wouldn't your home be a much better environment for productive prayer? And if prayer is so important for kids in school, what about adults who work? Should we try to mandate prayer in the workplace while we're at it? You might think I'm trying to be funny, but I'm not. Prayer doesn't stop at a certain age. If anything I would think prayer becomes more important as an adult. So if prayer in public places is so important for children each day, then it can't be too bad for adults either.

No it isn't. I incorporate mine in my breaks. As far as I know the government does not forbid privately owned companies from organizing prayer for the employees.

Also, is it spiritual reflection that you're after? Or does it have to be denominational prayer? Would it be OK if the kids took turns? One day reciting a Christian prayer, one day an Islamic prayer, and so on, until all the different denominations of children had their prayer recited in class? Or are you just interested in getting YOUR prayer placed in public schools?

It isn't necessary that it be so. They can pray as their parents prefer everyday.

Lastly, since public schools are in varying ethnic communities, some of them no doubt will have a majority of non-Christians. In these cases, I'm assuming you're OK with Christian children saying an Islamic prayer daily (if Islam is the majority of that particular school). Or would you be against this?

Not necessary. Each can elect which prayer their parents decide and pray it in their designated area.

My own opinion (for those who don't already know), is that you should make time at home for your child to pray. To someone like me, it seems as though you're simply too lazy or disorganized yourselves to make sure your kids pray every day. So you want to put it off on the public schools (at the expense of all the kids who aren't Christian), to do your job for you.

The government works for us. We are the boss. Did you not know?

Everything they do they do for us because we couldn't do it on our own.

Now, since many people can't afford to teach their children themselves, they have to send them to school so the school can educate them. It isn't laziness that they don't educate them themselves.

But for Christians, Our Lord wills that we pray without shrinking, and it obstructs our right to worship if our children are not permitted to pray.

Hey, I'm just being honest and calling it like I see it. If you're religious, I certainly see why it's very important to you that your kids pray every day. But it's YOUR job to teach the importance of prayer to your kids and to make sure they do it. Not a teacher's!

But it's a teacher's job, or should be, to do what the parent wants done.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

American schools were based and estabished by the Christian Church. In fact for many years the only schools in america and all colleges were church schools, there were no public schools what so ever.

I'll have to take your word on this for now, since I don't know the history. That's interesting if true. Obviously, many of the great colleges to this day have their roots in Christian tradition. So I don't dispute this at all.

And of course at the distain and about 100 posts saying I am wrong, America was founded and based as a Christian nation under God, but with the freedom of other religions to worship as they will ( and of course with many restrictions)

Well, then I probably can't say anything you haven't already heard. But you should do some research on those who signed the declaration of independence. Many were secularists. They were also very careful not to single out Christianity. Why do you suppose that is, if they were so intent on making this a Christian nation?

So I guess the real question is why it was ever taken out to start with and what their motives were.

Well, maybe it's because this country became home to the tired, the poor, and the huddled masses? There has been much immigration since the times you are talking about. Things change. In fact, that's the biggest problem I have with religion! It doesn't want to change with the times. It wants to keep people living in the dark past. It only reluctantly accept change when the evidence becomes too overwhelmingly obvious to be denied.

And of course no, to pray to another God for a Christian would never be allowed.

Thought so.

Remember most christians do not view the god of Islam as a real god but rather what used to be a moon god.

Right. And Muslims don't hold your god with the same reverence you do. But it's OK with you that they have to put their god on the back burner and recite prayers to your god. Again, the intolerance amazes me. I guess I have to have a little respect that you make no effort to hide it though.

But the real issue is that a school should not ( and still legally can not) stop a student from merely praying, they have to even allow meetings for students when they are student lead.

I'm about as against prayer in public schools as you can be, and I certainly do not want to stop a student from praying if he wants to. That's not what this is about at all. It's about you wanting to impose your prayers on non-Christian students! That's about as unAmerican as it gets, if you ask me.

[lobrobster]

Simply put, we are Christians, we have a right to worship as we please and our Scriptures are explicit:

Ok De Maria... I'm only going to take this one line, because it's so easy to get sidetracked and go off on so many different tangents with you...

Yes! Christians have a right to worship. Yes! We agree wholeheartedly. But what I don't understand is why you feel that others don't have this same right (including the right NOT to pray)? Oh I know the bit about YOU being the majority and all. So let me make this simple and approach it from a slightly different angle (you ARE capable of seeing this from a perspective other than your own, right?)...

You've been speaking from the position that the minority shouldn't dictate to the majority. Fine... But do you go a step further and believe the majority should be allowed to TAKE AWAY the rights of a minority? Simple question and let's put religion aside for a second. So if something is in the majority's interest, but it violates a minority's rights. Is that OK with you?

[stonewilder]

The fact is, generations of people have gone through our public school systems without ever praying in class and seem no worse for it.

I'm not a hard core Christian by any means. I had no intention to even post on this subject' but I had to when I seen this statement. Anyone who was in the school system 20 to 30 some years ago can tell you for fact that that is not a true statement at all. When prayer and spanking was stopped in public schools kids became much more disrespectful and problematic and it just keeps getting worse.

[Fr_Chuck]

When there was prayer in school, I do not anyone was forced or required to pray, they were allowed just to sit and not pray It is often non Christian nations where people are forced to pray or else.

[lobrobster]

I'm not a hard core Christian by any means. I had no intention to even post on this subject' but I had to when I seen this statement. Anyone who was in the school system 20 to 30 some years ago can tell you for fact that that is not a true statement at all. When prayer and spanking was stopped in public schools kids became much more disrespectful and problematic and it just keeps getting worse.

Spanking in schools had to have been longer than 20-30 years ago. I was in school during this time and never had a teacher lay a hand on me (and I was a problem kid).

Also, please provide some evidence that kids are any more disrepectful and problematic now than they were 30 years ago. Or that they're becoming worse. You're certainly entitled to express your opinion, but you spewed this out as though it were fact. It's not!

[De Maria]

Ok De Maria... I'm only going to take this one line, because it's so easy to get sidetracked and go off on so many different tangents with you...

Its obvious you have forgotten the last thread, already.

Yes! Christians have a right to worship. Yes! We agree wholeheartedly. But what I don't understand is why you feel that others don't have this same right (including the right NOT to pray

As I said, treat it like an elective.

Anyone who wants to pray with Christians, room 1,
Jews, room 2; Muslims, room 3.

Atheists can read a book or do what they elect ; room 4.

Prayer over, go to class.

Oh I know the bit about YOU being the majority and all. So let me make this simple and approach it from a slightly different angle (you ARE capable of seeing this from a perspective other than your own, right?)..

First, let me remind you that you agreed with me:

.Well, I got to say that's not a bad way to do it. At least you're being tolerant of other people's beliefs. Again, I have to apologize for not giving you enough credit.

Therefore, since you agree that I am "tolerant of other people's beliefs", why do you now question whether I can see "a perspective other than (my) own?"

You've been speaking from the position that the minority shouldn't dictate to the majority.

Correct.

Fine... But do you go a step further and believe the majority should be allowed to TAKE AWAY the rights of a minority?

No.

Simple question and let's put religion aside for a second. So if something is in the majority's interest, but it violates a minority's rights. Is that OK with you?

The Constitution protects everyone's rights as individuals. Not as majorities or as minorities.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

De Maria-

This was written before I read or responded to that other post.

Again I apologize. I made an assumption and jumped to the wrong conclusion about what you were suggesting. The way I pictured your prayer in school program was that the teacher would say something like, "All right kids, it's time for prayer.". And the kids would stand up (or sit down and bow their heads), and everyone would recite the same prayer (and the kids who didn't want to, would just sit there quietly and listen). To me, that would be completely intolerant and unacceptable.

I did not anticipate your idea for kids being allowed to participate in their own prayers. I'm sure you can see why the first scenario would bother the heck out of me. But as long as you're allowing equal time for every kid to pray as they like, then you're not forcing Christian prayer on anyone. In fact... You guys are doing this whole campaign a disservice by even mentioning Christian values at all, or the fact that Christians are a majority. You should leave the word "Christian" out of it entirely. When people like me hear "Christian" (or any one denomination without the mention of others), we're going to jump all over it as being intolerant, prejudiced and biased. I don't mean to help you in your quest, but take that for what it's worth.

I'm still against allocating the time for this prayer however. I'm also against the "need" for it. To many, prayer is just not important. So perhaps for those kids they can be allowed to get to class 10 minutes later or something?

[De Maria]

Lob,

I guess we're at a point of substantial agreement. I don't know how to answer your last question.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

I guess we're at a point of substantial agreement. I don't know how to answer your last question.De Maria

Well you might want to elaborate on why you feel prayer in public school is *necessary*. You're giving us lots of information about rights, the governments place, etc. but none on the benefits that prayer in shcools will have. And can we clarify one point?.

What you are advocating is *organized* prayer in schools. Very few people would have a problem with kids praying privately to themselves during recess or quick breaks as you say you do at work. It's *organized* prayer people have a problem with.

You say this has affected generations in a negative way, yet you have provided no evidence to suggest this. So that would be two questions I have...

1. What evidence can you present that shows lack of prayer in schools has affected students in a negative way? And...

2. Where is the evidence to show that prayer in schools has any positive effects on kids?

Many feel that before changing something, there should be a good REASON for said change.

[De Maria]

Well you might want to elaborate on why you feel prayer in public school is *necessary*.

I thought I did. Prayer is an essential part of our religion. Our religion says "pray without ceasing". Therefore, forbidding Christian children to pray is a serious impediment to our right to worship protected by the Constitution.

You're giving us lots of information about rights, the governments place, etc. but none on the benefits that prayer in shcools will have. And can we clarify one point?.

What you are advocating is *organized* prayer in schools. Very few people would have a problem with kids praying privately to themselves during recess or quick breaks as you say you do at work. It's *organized* prayer people have a problem with.

But you agreed you wouldn't have a problem with the way I suggested it be organized.

You say this has affected generations in a negative way, yet you have provided no evidence to suggest this

I said, "we believe" it has affected people negatively. I see no obligation to produce evidence that it has affected people negatively since I was simply countering your opinion that it has NOT affected people negatively.

So, first, you produce evidence that morals have not declined, ethics have not declined, crime has not increased and grades have not decreased during that time and then I will produce the evidence to refute your finding.

So that would be two questions I have...

1. What evidence can you present that shows lack of prayer in schools has affected students in a negative way? And...

For one, myself. When I first started school, we were permitted to pray. And we did. We normally said a short prayer at the start of class.

But then, in the third grade, it was forbidden.

At the same time, many of the history books carried anti-religious messages about the middle ages, clergy were characterized as self serving and ignorant, some as evil killers.

By the end of the sixth grade, around the age of thirteen, I was atheist. Around the age of thirteen.

2. Where is the evidence to show that prayer in schools has any positive effects on kids?

I know that it has a great calming effect on my kids. When they are scared, they pray. When we pray as a family, they fall asleep during the prayer.

Many feel that before changing something, there should be a good REASON for said change.

We believe our right to worship is a GREAT reason. And the only reason necessary since it is guaranteed by the Constitution.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[NeedKarma]

I'm not a hard core Christian by any means. I had no intention to even post on this subject' but I had to when I seen this statement. Anyone who was in the school system 20 to 30 some years ago can tell you for fact that that is not a true statement at all. When prayer and spanking was stopped in public schools kids became much more disrespectful and problematic and it just keeps getting worse.

Actually here in Canada we never had any prayer nor any patriotic statement in class, not 20 years ago, not now. No spanking either. The kids in my daughter's school seem quite nice. I turned out OK too. :D

[lobrobster]

So, first, you produce evidence that morals have not declined, ethics have not declined, crime has not increased and grades have not decreased during that time period and then I will produce the evidence to refute your finding.

No, no, no!. You theists always get so confused when it comes to evidence... It doesn't work that way. YOU are the one making a claim. YOU are the one trying to get a law changed. Therefore, the onus is on YOU to come up with evidence to support your claim. Same thing with God... We are not the ones making the claim He exists. You are. So provide your evidence please.

[De Maria]

No, no, no!... You theists always get so confused when it comes to evidence... It doesn't work that way. YOU are the one making a claim. YOU are the one trying to get a law changed. Therefore, the onus is on YOU to come up with evidence to support your claim. Same thing with God... We are not the ones making the claim He exists. You are. So provide your evidence please.

You say Ah'm confused? OK, lets have an instant replay:

In your original question you made two claims:

1. That you wanted to know the real reason we want prayer in school.
And
2. that there were no ill effects from not having prayer in school. I quote:

The fact is, generations of people have gone through our public school systems without ever praying in class and seem no worse for it.


Note that you called it a fact. I was careful to point out that my refutation was an opinion. I quote:

We believe it has affected generations of people negatively.

The word "believe" in my statement designates my statement as an opinion, does it not?

I repeated that in my next message:
I said, "we believe" it has affected people negatively. I see no obligation to produce evidence that it has affected people negatively since I was simply countering your opinion that it has NOT affected people negatively.

So, it is your burden to prove. You designated your statement a fact. I simply gave an opinion based on my experience.

And lob, I hope you aren't falling into the logical fallacy that a statement is true because there is no proof that the statement is false. You have made the statement that it is a fact that there are no ill effects on children because of the removal of prayer from school. Now you seem to be saying, since I haven't produced any evidence, then your statement must be true. But that is false logic.

So, if it is a fact, as you claim. Provide the evidence. Otherwise my statement stands with the evidence presented.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[lobrobster]

De Maria,

C'mon... You don't really believe what you're saying here, do you?

1. Wanting to know why you want prayer in school isn't a claim. It's a request for explanation.

2. You're correct that my statement of there being no discernable ill effects from lack of prayer, is an observation and therefore could be construed as a claim. And if there were currently prayer in schools and I was trying to get that changed, I would feel compelled to present some evidence for it. But that's not the case here, is it? No. The case is...

YOU are the one trying to get something changed, not me. So YOU need to present the evidence that such a change is needed or that it would be beneficial. Why would you think it should work any other way?

[kindj]

With all due respect to the other participants, let me see if I can get us back on topic here. :D

First off, for those that don't know me: I am a Christian, though I have quite the checkered past and still maintain some rough--actually jagged--edges. I've been a pastor (among other things), and am now a teacher in a public school, so I feel like I might have something to contribute here.

This may come as a shock to everyone, but I really don't see this as being that big of an issue. We first have to decide what we're talking about when we use the phrase "prayer in school." Do we mean a) that Christians SHALL have public prayer in school, and such prayer SHALL be recognized and sanctioned by the school administration/board/government, whatever--and that such prayer shall be the ONLY prayer offered in public schools; or b) that a Christian child should have the opportunity during the day to pray if he/she wishes to?

There are those who are pushing option A pretty hard. I am not one of them. I feel that--from a national government standpoint--it is to the exclusion of other religions or of those with no religion at all. I could be quite wrong, but I don't think that a mandated period of Christian prayer time is going to convert very many non-Christians to Christianity. Not to mention the fact that such a practice would totally fly in the face of not only the 1st Amendment, but it would betray everything that we like to think America is.

Therefore, I tend to go with option B--which is exactly what we have now. To my knowledge (which is not all-inclusive), there have been no (or very few) instances where a Christian student was ordered by the school to stop praying when such praying was not interfering with education or bothering/harassing other students or adults.

My middle son (9 years old) goes to a very diverse school near the university. Therefore, there is a huge variety of children there. I've met Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Sikhs, Buddhists, and even the occasional Wiccan there. Not to mention scores of atheists/agnostics. You want to know what I've noticed? The kids don't get too hung up on it, and neither do the parents. There is more true "tolerance" at that elementary school than you'll find anywhere on the university campus nearby.

Never has prayer of ANY flavor been an issue one way or another. In speaking with the Muslim parents in particular (because of their various prayer times throughout the day) I've found that they might wish that their child could go through the "full motions" of the prayer time, but they're not upset or hung up on it either. They seem to feel as I do: the child is there to learn reading, writing, math, history, etc. plain and simple. They (as do most parents) assume the religious education at home with the help and partnership of their faith structure.

To make a long story short(er), no one is stopping a kid from saying grace before his lunch or snack if he chooses to. No one is stopping Johnny or Susie from saying a quick silent prayer before beginning an exam.

My God is big enough that He doesn't need the government's permission to exist in the schools. So long as one child calls out to Him, He will be there.

As an aside, whether things have declined in the last 20-30 years, I think they have. Is it the fault of prayer (or no prayer) in the schools? I don't think so. I don't remember public prayer in any of my schools until graduation, and that was within the 20-30 year time frame we're talking about.

However, when I was working on my Master's, I did a study on the whole corporal punishment issue. I did it using data from 6 diverse states across the country, 5 different classes of schools based on population, and differentiated between inner-city schools, suburban schools, and rural schools. Honestly, I was not looking for one thing or another. However, I found a very direct correlation between the decline of corporal punishment and an increase in juvenile crime (as reported to the PD's of the areas studied). I mean it was an almost perfect 'X.' I suspected a link, but did not expect to see anything that drastic. Wish I still had it, I could post the abstract and the findings sections here. The methods section is a bit too large...

Anyway, there's my two-cents' worth.

[lobrobster]

Kindj -

I'd be very interested to learn more about that study you did for your masters. Extrapolating data for these type of studies can be very tricky. It is all too easy to form an inaccurate conclusion. There are many many variables to consider. While you may have thought you find a correlation (and I'm not saying you didn't), it could've been the result of many other factors, or even multiple factors that had little to do with corporal punishment.

I'm pretty sure there is no evidence which supports positive effects from corporal punishment in schools. Oh sure... It might scare the kids from immediate mischief, but in the long run, kids are kids and are usually more a product of their home envirnment than that of how they are/were disciplined in school. Just my opinion.

[De Maria]

De Maria,

C'mon... You don't really believe what you're saying here, do you?

Yes.

1. Wanting to know why you want prayer in school isn't a claim. It's a request for explanation.

Asked and answered:

Question:

There's been much talk about whether it's OK to allow prayer in public schools, but very little discussion on the purpose of it, or the reasons Christians feel it's so important.

Answer:

Prayer is an essential part of our religion. Our religion says "pray without ceasing". Therefore, forbidding Christian children to pray is a serious impediment to our right to worship protected by the Constitution.

2. You're correct that my statement of there being no discernable ill effects from lack of prayer, is an observation and therefore could be construed as a claim.

It is a claim. You said it was a fact.

The fact is, generations of people have gone through our public school systems without ever praying in class and seem no worse for it.

And if there were currently prayer in schools and I was trying to get that changed, I would feel compelled to present some evidence for it. But that's not the case here, is it? No. The case is...

YOU would feel compelled. But I believe that the only evidence needed is the Constitution's guarantee of freedom of religion. The Constitution guarantees our right to worship. I'm not trying to change this ruling on any other grounds. You are the one who brought that up. Therefore you need to substantiate your claim.

YOU are the one trying to get something changed, not me. So YOU need to present the evidence that such a change is needed or that it would be beneficial. Why would you think it should work any other way?

I am arguing the unConstitutionality of forbidding the children of religious people who compose the majority in this country, from exercising their right to pray, which is an essential element of our right to worship.

And, since, as you have admitted, it can be organized in an impartial basis, there should be no impediment to overturning the unConstitutional ruling.

Sincerely,

De Maria