[KBC]

What do you know about Toxic shame?

This is a little I have read about it,how does this affect what we do as addicts?

Addicts often carry a lot of shame which should not be theirs. Dealing with shame and absolving oneself of blame are important steps.

When a child grows up with people who are emotionally aware, the experience of shame which is passed on to the child is healthy and nourishing. When a child is brought up by shame-based parents, (those who cannot mirror and affirm their child’s emotions), the shame learned is toxic. Shame and blame are often toxic in abusive households.

Once learned, toxic shame continues to be created from inside of oneself. People affected by it judge themselves, rather than judging their actions. If they make a mistake or do something wrong, they judge themselves as bad, rather than judging their actions as imperfect. They live in terror of unexpected exposure - of others seeing them as they see themselves. Their shame separates them from others, causing them to disown their real selves and create a false self (a mask) that they present to the world.

The false selves created by different individuals are many, varied and hard to identify.

What are yours?

[N0help4u]

Sounds to me like another attempt by psychiatrists to get more people hooked on therapy and/or psychotropic meds .
I don't know very many people that are sensitive like that, in fact most people I know are in denial to who they are and any wrong they do.

[KBC]

sounds to me like another attempt by psychiatrists to get more people hooked on therapy and/or psychotropic meds .
I don't know very many people that are sensitive like that, in fact most people I know are in denial to who they are and any wrong they do.

No, this is a standard practice.accepted and used by better therapists(educated beyond first year-third year therapy degrees)

I am studying it to further my understanding of addictions(as well as others need to be informed about it too)

Don't be thrown off by the label TOXIC, that just means repetitive,unconscious, and from a long past(kind of the denial you made reference to)It is a real issue,I am barely understanding it too, that's why the question.

And as far as sensitivity to it, I am aware of it, so I guess I am one person you know who is sensitive like that.

Ken

[KBC]

I am afraid this topic is beyond what most might want to look at.

Shame, denial and resentments are for the recovering, not the suffering.

[N0help4u]

I will check it out. Is it something like what they call inner child?

[KBC]

I will check it out. Is it something like what they call inner child?

Yes,No, It requires a lot of understanding and research, kind of advanced study beyond typical therapy.like a forth step.

PS,Mooncrest?

[Wondergirl]

I learned in grad school that --

Guilt = I did a bad thing.

Shame = I AM bad.

Realizing the difference becomes an "Aha" moment for addicts and others struggling with ego problems.

[mseik]

If memory serves, this was popularized by Bradshaw. It's incorporated into most spirituality-based recovery curricula. Also, Scott Peck's assertion that toxic shame for the neurotic is self-directed (it's all my fault) and for the character disorder other-directed (it's everyone else's fault)... I believe Peck was the one who called it a "responsibility disorder." Both are blocks to spiritual recovery, and mired in the victim paradigm. Both effectively prevent people from moving beyond abstinence into self-healing and growth.

Abstinence is often thought of as being synonymous with recovery, but we've all known folks who have been abstinent for 20+ without having moved beyond that. 12-step modeling is a vital tool for attaining abstinence and support, but Bill W. intended it to be a boat to the other side of the river. The model wasn't intended to be a barge that people live on without crossing to the other side (the recovery side, where all the really hard work takes place).

Longer-term inpatient recovery programs (or counseling-intensive outpatient) are great places to learn how to use the many tools for recovery. Whether people decide to use them is completely out of everyone's hands but theirs, though.

[savedsinner7]

As one who lived the streets addicted to Methamphetamine, I understand this feeling you described.

Shame of who you are is something very hard to overcome. It's difficult to look at you actions separately from who you are. The masks created are a self-defense. If I let you see who I really am you may reject me as I have rejected myself. This is the legacy of toxic shame.

[KBC]

I will check it out. Is it something like what they call inner child?

I also lived in mooncrest almost 20 years ago!!

[mseik]

The biggest challenge for me, and subsequently for many of my clients, was to step outside of the warm and comfy whirlpool of the victim/martyr mindset. That takes nads and a commitment to standing naked before yourself and taking responsibility for the good, the bad, and the ugly and learning how to love yourself--and others--unconditionally. It may take a lifetime (or more), but it's a worthy quest!

These are just my thoughts based on my own observations, thoughts, and experience with myself and subsequently with clients.

The victim/martyr paradigm is extremely difficult to move through and beyond, but certainly not impossible. It appears to be a phenomenally safe place--one where people reach out to protect you, to admire you for carrying your burden, to lead with your wounds. It is a cloaked way of not taking responsibility. And it's a never-ending sinkhole. There is a façade to uphold, and the victim/martyr will defend that façade with their very being, albeit passive-aggressively, and sometimes cruelly (although the target of their cruelty will never be believed... after all, the victim/martyr is so selfless... ).

And, the victim/martyr is also often the partner of the active addict. The scenario provides endless fuel for their façade. It is a veritable Fort Knox of fuel, and they can rest assured they will likely never be mistaken for the bad guy. After all, they're tolerating and caring for a selfish, thoughtless, sometimes cruel addict. They are almost up for Sainthood!

Taking responsibility is impossible to separate from blame, guilt, and shame if you haven't learned to love others, and yourself, unconditionally. Not one of us is perfect (thank God!), and making mistakes is a gloriously invaluable part of the human condition.

But when we're in victim mode, it's almost impossible to cleanly accept responsibility for our actions. It is always (in our defensive mind) because of a wound, or someone else's perceived victimization of us, that these things occur. That we engage in addictive behavior. That we are poor. That we engage in hurtful relationships. That we are sick. That... that... that...

... and we can't grow from that place. We get stuck in it. We sink into it like an old couch that's lost its spring. Comfy but completely unsupportive.

The victim/martyr paradigm requires that we engage in lying on different levels, but mostly to ourselves. It allows us to not look deeply into our own shadows, to not examine our own psyche, to not open an unguarded dialogue with ourselves.

I was very lucky to learn this lesson (and embark on a lifetime of learning and growing) very shortly after I stopped engaging in self-destructive and addictive behavior almost 28 years ago. Most people, addicts or not, never get there. Many people do some work and guard the "I'm done, fixed, whole" paradigm with the defensive strength of a linebacker. And they stop the real growth process there. We're never done. Well, we are--we think-- when we die! Sometimes it's scary as h*ll and I guarantee you we're never actually finished with the work.

And I laugh--well and hard--every day. I take joy in every day, difficult or not. Sad or not. Raw or not. I try to learn from my bad days, recognize the ebb and flow of it all, not take myself too seriously (and when I do, hilarity usually follows in some form or another), and realize I'm a messy little critter among billions of messy little critters on this planet, and we're all in the same sandbox. And I try to share my pail and shovel as often as I can.

[Wondergirl]

What do you know about Toxic shame?

There is no non-toxic shame. There is only toxic shame. Shame by definition is toxic.

One's belief that he IS bad (shamed) reframes every experience and relationship. A shamed person cannot believe he is capable of a good experience or deserves a good relationship. A person who lives enveloped in a cloud of shame does not believe he is able to love or worthy of being loved.

A person can be told (either implicitly or explicitly) he is bad, can be shamed by others. If this continues on a regular basis, the person begins to tell himself he is bad, is an object of shame, is unworthy. The resulting shame, no matter how it occurs = I AM BAD. If this happens over and over again, the person believes it and then lives the shame, becomes the shame, acts out the shame--and then shames others.

Those who shame others have themselves been shamed. The entire process is toxic.

[KBC]

The biggest challenge for me, and subsequently for many of my clients, was to step outside of the warm and comfy whirlpool of the victim/martyr mindset. That takes nads and a commitment to standing naked before yourself and taking responsibility for the good, the bad, and the ugly and learning how to love yourself--and others--unconditionally. It may take a lifetime (or more), but it's a worthy quest!

These are just my thoughts based on my own observations, thoughts, and experience with myself and subsequently with clients.

The victim/martyr paradigm is extremely difficult to move through and beyond, but certainly not impossible. It appears to be a phenomenally safe place--one where people reach out to protect you, to admire you for carrying your burden, to lead with your wounds. It is a cloaked way of not taking responsibility. And it's a never-ending sinkhole. There is a facade to uphold, and the victim/martyr will defend that facade with their very being, albeit passive-aggressively, and sometimes cruelly (although the target of their cruelty will never be believed... after all, the victim/martyr is so selfless...).

And, the victim/martyr is also often the partner of the active addict. The scenario provides endless fuel for their facade. It is a veritable Fort Knox of fuel, and they can rest assured they will likely never be mistaken for the bad guy. After all, they're tolerating and caring for a selfish, thoughtless, sometimes cruel addict. They are almost up for Sainthood!

Taking responsibility is impossible to separate from blame, guilt, and shame if you haven't learned to love others, and yourself, unconditionally. Not one of us is perfect (thank God!), and making mistakes is a gloriously invaluable part of the human condition.

But when we're in victim mode, it's almost impossible to cleanly accept responsibility for our actions. It is always (in our defensive mind) because of a wound, or someone else's perceived victimization of us, that these things occur. That we engage in addictive behavior. That we are poor. That we engage in hurtful relationships. That we are sick. That... that... that...

...and we can't grow from that place. We get stuck in it. We sink into it like an old couch that's lost its spring. Comfy but completely unsupportive.

The victim/martyr paradigm requires that we engage in lying on different levels, but mostly to ourselves. It allows us to not look deeply into our own shadows, to not examine our own psyche, to not open an unguarded dialogue with ourselves.

I was very lucky to learn this lesson (and embark on a lifetime of learning and growing) very shortly after I stopped engaging in self-destructive and addictive behavior almost 28 years ago. Most people, addicts or not, never get there. Many people do some work and guard the "I'm done, fixed, whole" paradigm with the defensive strength of a linebacker. And they stop the real growth process there. We're never done. Well, we are--we think-- when we die! Sometimes it's scary as h*ll and I guarantee you we're never actually finished with the work.

And I laugh--well and hard--every day. I take joy in every day, difficult or not. Sad or not. Raw or not. I try to learn from my bad days, recognize the ebb and flow of it all, not take myself too seriously (and when I do, hilarity usually follows in some form or another), and realize I'm a messy little critter among billions of messy little critters on this planet, and we're all in the same sandbox. And I try to share my pail and shovel as often as I can.

This is VERY much what I was asking, This answer is right along the lines I was looking for.

For the many years of treatment,I wasn't always clear on many facets with the victim/martyr paradigm.

With this and hopefully more along these lines I can at least refer back to them and re-establish a train of thought towards where this(victim/martyr)lies,not only in my life, but in the lives of those around me(including AMHD)

You rock mseik, and I hope this didn't take as long as it looked to write, It is Very informative for me and hopefully others too.

Ken

[mseik]

Thank you, and I type like a freak so it really didn't take long. Stream of thought and all that. It's such a constant part of my learning process that I think it's all just there ready to spill out anyway.

Thanks for bringing up such a juicy topic! And for being so honest with yourself and others. It's such a great way to learn from each other.