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31 Pumpkin,
You need to remember that there is different beliefs of reincarnation as well. One belief is that you may come back in a lower life form depending on the way you live. There is another belief of reincarnation is you just keep coming back in human form but karma plays a role of what person you will come back as. One lifetime you may be a killer in the next life time you may be the murdered victim. Just using that as an example. Another theory, is that anybody that had a dramatic exit. Very horrible death, or committed suicide will come back to live life out to the fullest. Joe |
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From the bible-
He replied, "The knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance." (Matt. 13:11-12) I have become its servant by the commission God gave me to present to you the word of God in its fullness - the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints. To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory. (Col. 1:25-27) Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed. (1 Cor. 15:51) Supposedly this an example of the secret teachings of Jesus. |
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Tal,
Those passages could refer to absolutely anything, including the colonel's secret recipe of 11 herbs and spices. |
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 Originally Posted by talaniman
Hmmm... VERY possible!! Good find! |
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Forgive me pulling up passages is new so bear with me. What I was trying to show that Jesus discussed reincarnation to his deciples as part of his teaching. Still working on it.
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Originally Posted by talaniman
Jesus wasn't teaching reincarnation. In your 1st example, Matt.13:11-12: Jesus was speaking to them in parables. The Parable of the Sower. In fact one has to read chapter 13:1-23 to understand the meaning of what Jesus was saying to them. The meaning of the parable of the sower had a man who planted some seed in Matt 13:18-23. It has nothing to do with reincarnation. It has to do with man hearing the word of God, and what they do with it. Second - This is not reincarnation. This is about having the Spirit of Christ (the Holy Spirit) You do know who the saints are ? Answer: fellow believers. Anyway, further down in Col 2:2-4, Paul explains about the mystery. The sentences cannot be taken out of context. That must be rule #1 for understang the Bible! Third - 1Cor 15:51 - The word sleep in the sentence means "die". So now if you read from 1Cor15:50-55, you will see that he's talking about death being swallowed in victory through Christ. Feel free to ask anytime for Biblical explanations. Cheers! |
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While being neither "animist" nor "pagan"-- I understand God gave all living things spirit simply because I can both see it, feel it and sometimes even interact with it, which probably makes me sound cracked to many people LOL but I assure you this is as real as any physical object is. I don't know where that fits in with reincarnation but it is what it is.
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Thank you And I have many questions. I have no problem what so ever asking them. I am not of your faith but I am committed to understanding, so don't take offense at my... abrupt way of expressing myself. Just me.
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I remember a pastor now saying, Jesus takes care of the flesh & blood of things.
So that's it. If it has flesh & blood, it has a soul. That explains my daughter's 2 Jack Russell terriers! They have some personality! :p |
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If any teachings of Jesus were secret, they wouldn't be written in a book! He used parables to hide the truth from people who had no intention of following His teachings, but He explained what He meant to those who were willing to follow His teachings. Somewhow, some of you seem to confuse resurrection with reincarnation. They are in no way related.
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Originally Posted by 31pumpkin
What I'm saying is an insect is not capable of thought or learning (as a pet)
I believe anything with a nervous system feels pain when it's crushed. But its brain doesn't(the insect) has the capacity to look at the " exterminator" and look like it's saying "please don't kill me!" So that's why I don't think they have a soul. Insects are just part of ecology. I don't think there's anything "sacred" about them. Just my opinion, of course. This of course, leads me to the second part of the argument. It is believed that insects such as spiders are incapable of discerning human beings as an entity in whole, we are simply too large. They can recognize a finger, possibly a whole hand, but not a person. Regardless of this fact, jumping siders are very acute in tracking human movement, constantly turning to face one. And, if felt to be threatened, neraly any insect will attempt to flee. Instinct or not, it is making a concerted attempt to prolong its existence. They cannot express a desire not to be squashed, in the same way that humans can, as they both lack our peculiar features and expressions, and likely the ability to recognize a human face as well. It likely is true that they don't perceive pain in quite the same way as humans do -- even lobsters, with a very rudimentary nervous system, die within seconds in lukewarm water -- though feel discomfort they do, and their will and instinct to live is no less strong. Just because something does not perceive the world on the same level, or in the same manner, does not give anyone the right to exterminate it. You can say it is just a part of the ecology, but if spiders alone did not exist, other insects would surely overpopulate the world to the point in where it were no longer livable for humans. Again, you can say they are nothing more than an expendable part of the environment, but then again, mosquitoes probably view you in much the same way. As an opportune resource, and nothing more. Compassion is a gift unique to higher animals. Why should we waste it? Better on insects than barely at all.
The soul consists of the 1) mind 2) will 3) and emotions. I certainly would think that mammals have the capacity to think & learn, have a will, and have feelings more than just instinctual.(heartfelt feelings) Let's forget about the spirit for now.
But the question I'd like to ask for" believers" in reincarnation is: How does the rat that may have a soul cleanse itself for the next incarnation? What would the criteria be for the rat to improve itself in its life, so that it would return something better? Does it have to reach some kind of Nirvana? What would constitute a judgment of a "good rat"?
From the Hindu perspective, the rat needn't do anything, he is a rat because he is blessed. There are temples in India where rats are worshipped, roam freely throughout, and are fed daily by devout followers. Many people eat the rats' food and drink milk from their dishes, believing that doing such will cure them of all illness. From the Buddhist perspective, the rat neither can, nor really need, do anything. Karma is about volitional action, will. That is what creates karma, keeping us perpetually trapped in delusion and an endless cycle of rebirths. Human actions carry such weight, simply because we the have the ability to reason and choose. A human may become a rat due to an instinct driven existence, a life spent over-indulging in more basic drives, with little regard for others -- such as sex and hunger. Though the rat may continue to live his life in much the same way, this is quite natural for the rat. Because the rat does not choose and discriminate, nor understand the possible consequences of its actions, the negative karma the rat accumulates is quite comparatively small. It has a great deal to do with intent. Thus, eventually the karma that caused the rat to become what it is will eventually run its course. Having not accumulated a great deal of further karma in his current incarnation, he has naught but to move up in further lifetimes. There is as well, the ever-present and compassionate aid of the myriad Buddhas and Bodhisattvas. There is no such thing as a "good" rat or a "bad" rat. These are dualistic human conceptions that have no bearing in the higher experience of ultimately reality, as opposed to a person's own relative view. And they certainly have no bearing in a rat's existence. Any food, sex or shelter is likely good to the rat. The rat lives and survives in the moment, and like most animals, they are quite Zen in this manner.
This is sounding crazy already to me. So I don't know if it's going to get any saner!
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Not all beliefs share this view of the "soul." In Buddhism, these are largely considered obstacles to understanding our truest nature.
In Christianity the "soul" can also be an obstacle for "walking in the Spirit". Two reasons to walk in alignment, Spirit, soul, body is to hear God's voice and for Spiritual protection. There's of course too much to write here from the Cleansing Seminar I still have notes from, but the soul of man(mind, will, & emotions) can be an obstacle. The clarity of God's voice gets lost in all the elements of our soul, & God's direction for our lives is weakened or lost. If we are walking in the flesh, being ruled by our soul- what God is saying to us must 1st filter through the thoughts, imaginations, & confusion in our mind; through the pain, brokenness, anger, & resentments in our emotions; through the pressures of choices we have made; &, finally, through any other stresses we may be experiencing. If we cannot hear God clearly, we become open to deception by the enemy (Cleansing Stream Ministries 1999) What this is basically for is to have own's Spirit in control & that the soul needs healing & delverance. The spirit is that eternal part of us that will continue on beyond the termination of our body's life. The spirit stands for the highest elements of man by which we comprehend spiritual truths. Our spirit is the most powerful part of our being. It is the part that deals with right & wrong behavior. (C.S.M. 1999) In the Bible even animals weren't considered sacred. There were many animal sacrifices in the Old Testament. The then Lord desired mercy, not sacrifice. I'll stick with Jesus. I had a friend in the early years who got into Buddhism. She invited a couple of us to a retreat where she was working. She told me to get the book "Be Here Now", which I did. One time she came to my apt. & asked if I read it. I said, a little(I didn't want to hurt her feelings that I thought it was stupid) She got very belligerent over this anyway & said she couldn't be my friend anymore because I was too different from her,etc. Then I heard from the mutual friend that her parents had to admit her to a psychiatric hospital because she wouldn't or couldn't stop exercising. I don't know if it was her interests in Buddhism that triggered something in her mentally, but it certainly didn't look like a good thing for her. |
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"Be Here Now" by Ram Dass and the contemporary version "Power of Now" by Erkhart Tolle are two books that successfully identify in plain language that all reality is only to be found in this very moment, and now that moment is gone. All things occur in the present moment only, and all life force is found there. It is like you can't step into the same river twice since the flowing water makes each part of the river you step in different.
When it came to relating it to God, I was told that "God's name is not I Was nor is it I Will Be but rather I Am". It is because western civilization invites us to spend an inordinate amount of wasted time in our minds in the past (usually in anger) and future (usually in fear) that this perspective of how to reclaim authenticity is so popular. It is part of my daily spiritual practice -- to stay in the Now. Some reckon it to one day at a time; for me its more like one nanosecond at a time LOL. |
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Val - I believe my friend's problems came from being in the "now" She seemed to be catching all the "karma" onto herself . I say that because when everyone who be laid back hanging out she always started moving. It was obvious, and also unnecessary.
Also, I don't have to "be here now" to live in the present tense. The book seemed to be analyzing the now too, much for me at least. If I look back in the past, it's not with anger. If I look to the future, it's with hope and not fear. I think we can all relate to the reality of being here now consciously when walking by some quiet stream or forest. All a person really has to do is become quiet and relax to sense the beauty around. But then again other people may enjoy a book like that! Love & Peace |
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Would a Christian be considered committing a sin if they were to believe in reincarnation? They would be rejecting prescribed doctrine for their own ideas.
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Hi, VB
Having been a Christian for over 50 years, I cannot see how a Christian could believe in reincarnation in the first place. There is just no Biblical basis for it. Resurrection, on the other hand, is clearly seen first in the book of Job (considered to the oldest book in the Bible), and then through the rest of the Bible. Job 19:26 26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: (KJV) The Sadducees of Jesus' time did not believe in a resurrection, but neither did they believe in reincarnation. |
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Originally Posted by galveston
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On the matter of resurrection; which body do you get? The one you last had, complete with sickness or old age? Jesus still had his crucifixion wounds, so it's really not that far fetched to ask. Do you get the parts back that were removed by surgery or accident? How about children born with deformities? And what about those sacred unborn babies - do they come back as a lump of cells unable to exist outside a mothers body, or as the fully formed humans that they never were?
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VBnomad -
Brand new physical bodies! The embryo - probably as a child.:rolleyes: |
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Reincarnation, or at least a type of it, might exist if that's what a person believes. In such cases the soul possibly becomes gripped by something less than God, and that power (call it an archetype, if you will) continues to engulf other individuals through history, giving the semblance of reincarnation because individuals come to identify with the archetype. But I don't think this kind of reincarnation fits with the standard theory that the soul is on a path toward enlightenment. In my opinion it's probably enslaved by an archetypal force.
That's pretty abstract and speculative but I outline it as one possibility I've considered. Myself, I don't subscribe to the theory because I see it as intellectually and spiritually limiting. Possibly people have certain experiences (alleged flashbacks of 'past lives') but they interpret that experience incorrectly. Catholics have suggested that what's really happening is a deceased person (or a demon) is influencing a living person. Another possibility is that the living person is somehow seeing/experiencing through time, into the past. This isn't so far-fetched when we consider the relativity of space-time as outlined in contemporary physics. And yet another possibility is that certain memories are encoded in our genes. Or some people just have vivid imaginations, combined with a psychological need to feel special, important, etc. Sometimes reincarnation believers get quite perturbed when I suggest that they cling to their beliefs just as dogmatically as any cradle Catholic. But there it is. In my view it's just a belief. |
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