[excon]

Hello again:

Thank you all. I have to tell you, I have mixed feelings about this.

Clearly, circumcision hurts and it's a disfigurement. You're not going to convince me otherwise, cause that's just so. I don't believe the myth that babies don't feel pain. I can't even for the life of me, figure out where THAT came from, or what evidence there is to back it up. A baby smiling through a painful procedure ISN'T evidence.

Secondarily, if God didn't want a foreskin, why'd he put one there?

Now we come to the conflict. I'm a cultural Jew - NOT a religious one. I LOVE and embrace the culture. I participate in the culture. I LIVE the culture. I AM the culture. I'm very proud that my culture has existed in tact for over 5,000 years.

However, my cultural side looks askance at ANY religious procedure (by ANY religion) that causes pain to another.

Is it time to put that backwater procedure in the trash heap along with polygamy and human sacrifice? If not now, EVER? Yes, I know we've been doing it for 5,000 years. The Arabs have been cutting off peoples for that long too.

I know that is the secular side of me speaking. Ok...

excon

PS> (edited) More conflict. Please don't misunderstand me. As I look down upon my circumcised unit, I really think it looks a lot better than the uncircumcised ones do. Go figure.

[oneguyinohio]

So, people will choose to believe that cutting off a portion of the body is not painful bacause that's what they choose to have faith in... Sounds kind of like religion doesn't it?

Ok so now I must be anti-tolerant because I disagree with you concerning a surgical procedure? My original post only stated that to believe something (painless circumcission) based on "faith" (firm belief in something for which there is no proof) sounded like religion to me.

In my post, I made no conclusions about anything being the fault of religion. Indeed, I feel that you are the person who has made conclusions about my intentions. Hopefully, you do not have a persecution complex, regarding your religion... although given history, it would be understandable if you do.

Please accept my sincere apologies for any confusion or misunderstanding that has arisen from my wording. I believe I am allowed to state my opinion of disagreement to messages from other's in the forum. Your comments welcoming me to the forum seemed less than sincere and did little to make others feel any openness to discuss religious matters. Due to the sensitive and emotional nature that comes with strong beliefs, I am not surprised to find such reactions.

[rosends]

excon -- your response makes perfect sense from your context as a cultural Jew, to a degree -- you embrace your culture but don't want to see that that culture is an effect of the ritual that crafted it over the millennia.

To embrace culture but ignore the religious aspect is to eat matzah because it tastes good. It doesn't -- we do it even though it causes constipation, because God told us to. We wrap leather straps around our arms, not because we enjoy cutting off the blood flow to our fingers at 6:30 in the morning, or because it connects us to our grandparents but because God told us to. We don't cut our hair during the Omer not because we are closet hippies, but because our religion says not to. All of those visible signs of "being Jewish" aside from wearing a star are really steeped in the rules and regulations which determine us as Jewish.

We are commanded in the text which describes our being distinct to cut off the foreskin -- to show that our lusts are subjugated to God's will and that we are united in this act with the heritage of a covenant with the divine. We aren't about eating kosher-style chicken soup and deli sandwiches or dancing in a circle to some music in a minor key at a wedding but about maintaining the practices which allowed us to distinguish ourselves and be a separate nation.

As I said earlier, getting shots is painful, so should we relegate it to the scientific trash heap which holds blood letting? Or should we say that it is that practice which has helped keep us alive and keep on doing it even though it makes babies cry?

Continuing the obervance of the brit through circumcision keeps us alive as well and is the reason that we have a culture to be a part of.

I'll get down off my soap box now.

[excon]

I'll get down off my soap box now.

Hello again, rosends:

Don't. Because I realize that my participation in the culture is hollow without the religion.

Nonetheless, it IS my culture, and I (like any Jew) have an opinion about it. Hopefully, my LACK of religion doesn't disqualify me.

One benefit that my atheism MAY provide me, is that I don't get constipated when I eat matzoh.

excon

[BABRAM]

Sounds kind of like religion doesn't it?

Hmmm, wonder how many people still practice sacrificing their children?

So your surprised after making the above comments? Listen pally, as Jews we strive to accommodate and be tolerant with everyone, including you. I really should not have to summarize in context what I already said. So given that you're here on the Judaism board and chose to start with a general intolerance toward religion, try now to be respectful. Likewise you'll have my respect.


Bobby

[BABRAM]

excon agrees: It was YOU who suggested I ask over here.

I'm getting older, at least my wife reminds me of such, but my memory hasn't completely failed me yet. Of course I invited you, as it relates to Judaism, not on the politics board. Remember the "mitzvoth" part of your OP? It's understandable with the replies you received here, albeit mostly from non-Jews without expertise in Judaism, that you might as well had posted on the politics board. Maybe it's just me, but I thought questions about a bris belonged on the Judaism board.


Bobby

[oneguyinohio]

Respect is earned by your actions, not through name calling and/or sarcasm. Calling me "pally" and "you lovable personality and tolerant genius" does little to further any positive regard for you.

If you are not open to logical discussion, without using those tactics to defend your stance, then there is little from the exchange to invoke within me any desire to explore your beliefs.

Such defense mechanisms are not productive for anything more than shutting the world out.

[BABRAM]

Respect is earned by your actions, not through name calling and/or sarcasm. Calling me "pally" and "you lovable personality and tolerant genius" does little to further any positive regard for you.

If you are not open to logical discussion, without using those tactics to defend your stance, then there is little from the exchange to invoke within me any desire to explore your beliefs.

Such defense mechanisms are not productive for anything more than shutting the world out.

Good. Then you realize your sarcastic shot at "religion" and "sacrificing children" was uncalled for. We can start anew if you like? What question pertaining to Judaism do you have for the board?



Bobby

[oneguyinohio]

Two questions actually.

First, what is the orthadox view of gay and lesbian relationships in Judaism? I am curious because I knew a gay woman in college whose father was a Rabbi.

Second, are there any cultural issues surrounding how women act toward men? Are women viewed as separate from men as far as making personal and religious decisions for the family? I seriously would like to know as a compariison to other religions. I know that there is a wide variety of thought from the Christian perspective and a curious about the traditional or majority of thought on it in Judaism. If the religious heritage is traced through maternal lines, I wonder if this makes them the head of the household or not?

[BABRAM]

Two questions actually.

First, what is the orthadox view of gay and lesbian relationships in Judaism? I am curious because I knew a gay woman in college whose father was a Rabbi.?

I can't tell you how that particular rabbi dealt with his lesbian daughter, however I can tell you that traditional Judaism does not approve of homosexual relationships. Congregants would be asked to re-consider their actions with counciling. There are actually outreach programs, here's one link: JONAH (Jews Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality)


A known person being gay in a relationship couldn't receive ordination to become a rabbi. Conservative and Post Denominational Judaism are the same way. Over the past decade the Reform movement have permitted such, and the Reconstructionist, which is the most liberal branch of Judaism, just about anything goes.

Orthodox- No homosexual rabbis; Chabad Lubavitch - Torah, Judaism and Jewish Info

Conservative- No homosexual rabbis; USCJ: United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism

Post Denominational- No homosexual rabbis; www.adatami.com|Index

Reform- Over the past decade or so, Reform Judaism has been addressing homosexuality and to what degree if it will be permited. A few Reform Temples are ran more conservative but most have become more progressive and less traditional; URJ - Homosexuality

Reconstructionist- Almost anything is acceptable; Is Reconstructionist Judaism For You?

Second, are there any cultural issues surrounding how women act toward men? Are women viewed as separate from men as far as making personal and religious decisions for the family? seriously would like to know as a compariison to other religions. I know that there is a wide variety of thought from the Christian perspective and a curious about the traditional or majority of thought on it in Judaism. If the religious heritage is traced through maternal lines, I wonder if this makes them the head of the household or not?

The standard guidelines for life cycles are set in Orthodox Judaism, that just comes with territory. Equally dependent on each other are men and women. Rabbis teach that women are the higher spiritual creatures. Personally I see this in their sensitivities. They don't react as men to the same circumstances. As men, we are typically more hard shelled, and women more emotional and caring. Although child rearing is a function of both parents you will see the women are given special status to promote the well being of the child's care more often; teaching at home and preparing kosher meals. This is due to social issues as much, since many women in Orthodox communities in the US still stay home and take of the child and the father works. Orthodox emphasize the tradition of the Bar Mitzvah, as to where it's part of non-Orthodox Judaism has introduced the modern standard for the Bat Mitzvah. You'll see this heavily promoted by mothers in the non-Orthodox communities for their daughters. Men and women sit separately in Orthodox shul. Not that the women are less important, but most of the synagogue functions in the Orthodox service are carried out by the men. Women do have some functions though, for example candle lighting. Practically speaking it lessens the distractions. However in the Orthodox communities women do not become rabbis. My son's recent bris was part of my responsibility as the father, not the mother. With the exception of some of the more liberal branches, traditional Judaism teaches that if the mother is Jewish, the child's Jewish. So in that respect women are treated as carrying that banner. One of the reasons is because a women knew whom the father was and to discourage assimilation, especially at a time when Jewish women were being raped. Off the top of my head, if I recall correctly, the foundation for the matrilineal guideline is found in the book of Ezra. There are also laws concerning purity, bodily functions, that women are responsible for carrying out. And between and husband and wife, the husband needs to be aware to maintain within in the Torah.

Although I've attended synagogue with all the branches of Judaism, I was raised in the Reform movement. Rosends and ETW can further expand on the Orthodox specifics.



Bobby

[bushg]

Well, I can tell you penetcostal men want their women see not heard... at least where I was raised. Needless to say I was kicked out of that religion a long time ago. I went happily.

[BABRAM]

Rosends, after reading the link I'm a little surprised by their decision and I certainly disagree with them for doing so. The last time I went to a Conservative service was for a Bar Mitzvah over 12 years ago. At that time, the gay controversy was a major topic, you could almost sense that they were going down the same path as the Reform eventually.


Bobby

[rosends]

The Conservative movement is splitting, it just doesn't want to admit it. The Egal branch and the Traditional branch are trying to figure out which one is really Conservative and which is too close to either Reform or Ortho.

This is what happens when a movement springs up as a response -- Conservative developed as a response to Reform's being too reform, not because it was a unique and separate philosophical movement; that developed a bit later, if I recall my schooling.

[BABRAM]

I second your thoughts on that (more on this in the next paragraph). My mother's side of the family were German speaking Prussian Jews, perhaps originally out of the Poland/Russia part before Germany, that migrated to the US in the late 1870's to the south-central Texas area. Below is a link proving history of Reform Jews in Austin. I mention this because of where I associated off and on, many many moons ago, before moving to Las Vegas, Nevada in the mid-nineties.

http://bethisrael.sitestreet.org/8/Community.htm

As you've already mentioned the Conservative movement came as a response to the liberal Reform out of Germany. However, I don't think they built their first shul until the movement really got popular in the US. I'm not one hundred percent sure on that. I suppose I should brush up on that part of history. I think the Conservatives difficulty is definition and as you say, don't want to admit that a split is on the horizon. When the Reform movement in relatively recent history had the same predicament they finally decided to permit members to be as liberal or traditionally observant as one likes, instead of risking any more major splits. However, not all Reform leaders stood pat by this decision. At the shul where I occasionally attend, the rabbi did desire a more traditional view, so he opted for Post-Denominational. It's actually a mix of Reform and Conservative movement ideology, but follows the Orthodox traditional view concerning homosexuality.

www.adatami.com|Index


Bobby

[oneguyinohio]

Thank you for your responses. It answered a few questions I've had for a long time. In response to my question about how her religion looked at the issue, the Rabbi's daughter I spoke of earlier had only told me that Jewish customs were different than the Christian teachings I was familiar with.

As for the second question, I have seen such a variety of beliefs from different churches, that it could make one's head spin.

Your responses have been appreciated and insightful!