[Dark_crow]

In spite of all the yelling about doing nothing about illegal emigrants: In the past two years, the immigration agency has dramatically stepped up arrests of illegal immigrants in workplaces and in their homes.

I would like to find out what you think; if undocumented workers were pouring into the professional, elite ranks of this country, if they were coming into the professor ranks or the lawyer ranks or the doctors' ranks or the business executive ranks, would this have been solved a long time ago?

[Choux]

Your question misses the point... the movers and shakers in American society, from President BUSH and the corporate heads... WHAT LOTS OF UNSKILLED AND CHEAP LABOR!! If any powerful people wanted to curb illegal immigration from the south, there would be a law in place that all Americans have AN IDENTIFICATION CARD issued at their local police station. There is no control of our borders without **FIRST**, a national identfication card. We *FIRST* have to know who is in America legally before we can deal with the rest of the mess...

Rounding up a few Latino deadbeats, criminals, and mothers with small children... of no help with the problem whatsoever...

[Dark_crow]

Your question misses the point...the movers and shakers in American society, from President BUSH and the corporate heads.....WHAT LOTS OF UNSKILLED AND CHEAP LABOR!!!!! If any powerful people wanted to curb illegal immigration from the south, there would be a law in place that all Americans have AN IDENTIFICATION CARD issued at their local police station. There is no control of our borders without **FIRST**, a national identfication card. We *FIRST* have to know who is in America legally before we can deal with the rest of the mess....

Rounding up a few Latino deadbeats, criminals, and mothers with small children......of no help with the problem whatsoever.....

We have had that discussion and this is a different one. If you have forgot, go back and read the thread…stop with the ‘Red Herring's.’

:D

[Choux]

Educated and professional people don't come flooding into America illegally. That is just plain silly! *They* have to have documents to practice medicine, get hires at an engineering firm, and so on...

As I said...

:D

[Dark_crow]

No, we need an employment eligibility verification system that turns knowingly hiring illegal into an activity that is likely to result in steep financial penalties and/or prison time, the jobs dry up, the problem goes away.

[ETWolverine]

As I have said before, a combination of law enforcement and border enforcement can significantly eliminate the problem.

Chou is right when she states that professionals don't come here illegally to work. What hospital would hire a doctor who's medical background can't be verified? What law firm would hire an attorney who can't verify having passed the Bar Exam? What university would hire a professor who's doctorate can't be proven? If those who were coming over illegally were professionals, there never would have been a problem in the first place.

But they are not professionals. They are unskilled laborers. From their perspective it is better to risk coming here illegally, possibly dying in the desert, possibly getting killed by the coyotes that transport them, living in American slum conditions, risk arrest and deportation, to work their butts off at low-skill/low-pay jobs which are infinitely more rewarding than anything in their countries of origin, than to just stay home and starve to death. For them, the risks are worth the rewards of the jobs they can get here. The risk/reward analysis favors a decision to come here illegally.

However, if they can't get those jobs here anymore, and if the risk of getting caught while trying to come here go up, then the risk/reward analysis changes. Why take the risks mentioned above if they know they won't get a job?

DC is correct in his analysis of the situation. If the jobs dry up, so will the incentive for illegal immigration. Not only would there be significantly fewer illegal immigrants coming here, but there would be a large number of illegals who are already here who would go home because they no longer have a reason to stay.

excon's argument will, of course, be that all they want to do is blow our leaves and wash our dishes. What's wrong with that? My response is that they are welcome to wash the dishes and blow the leaves if they come here legally. Not only would that be good for us in that it makes us safer, but it helps THEM because they will suddenly be able to make minimum wage as opposed to the slave wages that excon condemns them to under the current situation. Some would respond to this by saying "But then nobody will hire them." And to this I say "That's how a free market economy works. People are free to hire whoever they want. The unemployment problems of South American countries are not our concern, but rather the concerns of those countries. We are not responsible to create a workfare program for the rest of the world."

I'm getting a little schizophrenic arguing with myself, so I'll stop now.

Elliot

[tomder55]

The conventional wisdom is that there is not enough H1B visas being issued. Bill Gates has testified that it hindered his ability to hire skilled workers for Microsoft. But the question becomes this ; does the hiring of H1B immigrants come at the expense of skilled Americans looking for work ? Or perhaps as a follow-up does the issuing of H1B visas suppress the wages of skilled American workers who have to compete with the skilled immigrant ?Is there truly a shortage of skilled American professionals ?

[excon]

Excon's argument will, of course, be that all they want to do is blow our leaves and wash our dishes. What's wrong with that? My response is that they are welcome to wash the dishes and blow the leaves if they come here legally..... I'm getting a little schizophrenic arguing with myself, so I'll stop now.

Hello El:

If it'll make you feel better, I'll argue with you. But only if you make me... Ok, you made me.

The fact of the matter is, all I want is my leaves blown and my dishes washed. If the Mexicans COULD have come here legally, they would have, and my dishes would have been washed. Case closed.

But, they CAN'T come here legally. I know you don't get that. But, there's nothing I can do about that except to explain again, that the cost for legal entry is around $5,000 and the wait is approximately 5 years.

In the real world, for the Mexicans who want to blow leaves and wash dishes because their family is hungry NOW, the LEGAL immigration door is, for all intents and purposes, CLOSED.

So, they come anyway. Who is surprised at that?

Now, who is the bad guy in all this? I suggest to you, that it's NOT the guy who blows leaves and sends his money to Mexico. I suggest that it's the CONGRESS who dillydallied for 50 years while the borders remained porous.

Did that benefit everybody?? Sure - until we were attacked. Oh, I kept hearing from people about the jobs they were taking from American workers. But, I never saw any American workers going out to the fields to apply either. If they did, they would have gotten work. But, I digress...

What we need is COMPREHENSIVE immigration reform and secure borders. That'll fix the border issues for the future. But, the problem is how do we clean up the mess that CONGRESS created for us over the last 50 years??

Well, we don't punish the innocent victims, which is my leaf blower. He didn't do anything that you wouldn't have done yourself in the same circumstance.

Ok, that's another thing you don't get. Let me see if I can help again. If your family was hungry, and the only thing separating you from that help wanted sign over there is an imaginary line in the sand, you'd cross that line. Yes you would. You know it, and I know it.

So, you can yell about your laws on your books and how bad these illegal immigrants are, but it's pure hogwash. The real villains are the CONGRESS who did NOTHING.

Yes, they shouldn't be here. But in the real world, we're not going to deport them, and we're not going to put them in jail. I know you want to punish them. You right wingers just can't see past those laws your wrote down. Ok, tell me, in the REAL world, how are you going to do that - even if they deserve punishment, which they don't?

Let's give 'em citizenship and move on.

excon

[Dark_crow]

Education…The illegal's crossing into America are uneducated period. Some people just don't understand how uneducated they are. My personal experience with landscapers is fairly extensive. I spent many years a Property Manager and during those years had occasion to hire many different Landscaping companies. It was done by bid. Did I always hire the lowest bid, no; but let me assure you it is an extremely competitive business. Over those years the owners, who were all well educated and held degrees in horticulture hired 'leaf blowers' to do the work. In ever case the workers were exploited.

They were at a dead run all day and often still did not accomplish the task fully. Every few months there was an entirely new crew.

Public education is simply not nearly as available in the Latin countries of the Americas' as we know it. The greatest percent of unemployed in America are uneducated as well, and to give amnesty to several million uneducated people is simply ludicrous even on the face of it, and to invite what is happining today in France.

If people like excon want to help these illegal's the better way for the American people is to build public schools in Mexico.

[excon]

and to give amnesty to several million uneducated people is simply ludicrous even on the face of it, and to invite what is happining today in France. [/B]If people like Excon want to help these illegal’s the better way for the American people is to build public schools in Mexico.

Hello again, DC:

Couple things.

You guy's are full of what we CAN'T do with these people. What we CAN'T do, doesn't solve the problem, and isn't interesting at all. I want to know what you WILL do with a problem WE'VE got right NOW??

Specifically what you WOULD do with the 10-15 million of them who are here NOW?? I don't think you HAVE an answer, only complaints.

Second thing. I don't care if my leaf blower is educated, and I'm certainly not going to send money to Mexico for THEIR schools. Are you nuts?

excon

[Dark_crow]

Hello again, DC:

Couple things.

You guy's are full of what we CAN'T do with these people. What we CAN'T do, doesn't solve the problem, and isn't interesting at all. I want to know what you WILL do with a problem WE'VE got right NOW??

Specifically what you WOULD do with the 10-15 million of them who are here NOW?? I don't think you HAVE an answer, only complaints.

Second thing. I don't care if my leaf blower is educated, and I'm certainly not going to send money to Mexico for THEIR schools. Are you nuts?

Excon

First…I did make a positive statement on what to do with them…read post # 5.

No, we need an employment eligibility verification system that turns knowingly hiring illegal into an activity that is likely to result in steep financial penalties and/or prison time, the jobs dry up, the problem goes away.

Second…I don’t believe you have had any experience trying to manage a bunch if illiterate Mexican ‘leaf Blowers’.

No, adding a few million uneducated people to the unemployment rolls is asking for the same problem France is experiencing today…”Urban Guerrillas”.

[excon]

Excon

First…I did make a positive statement on what to do with them…read post # 5....Second…I don’t believe you have had any experience trying to manage a bunch if illiterate Mexican ‘leaf Blowers’.

Hello again, DC:

In post #5, your solution is to end their jobs. Your assumption, then, is that 15 million of them would go back home. Problem solved. Huh??

I don't make that assumption at all. For most of them, THIS is their home.

My question to you is, WHAT do you do if they DON'T?

Second. I haven't had any experience dealing with a bunch of illiterate Mexicans. So what? My experience, or your experience or anybody's experience has NOTHING to do with what's happening on the ground. They're ALREADY HERE. If they weren't, and we were discussing whether to let them in or not, your argument would be germane.

BUT, THEY'RE ALREADY HERE. They are NOT going to disappear.

excon

[ETWolverine]

Hello El:

If it'll make you feel better, I'll argue with you. But only if you make me... Ok, you made me.

The fact of the matter is, all I want is my leaves blown and my dishes washed. If the Mexicans COULD have come here legally, they would have, and my dishes would have been washed. Case closed.

But, they CAN'T come here legally. I know you don't get that. But, there's nothing I can do about that except to explain again, that the cost for legal entry is around $5,000 and the wait is approximately 5 years.

In the real world, for the Mexicans who want to blow leaves and wash dishes because their family is hungry NOW, the LEGAL immigration door is, for all intents and purposes, CLOSED.

So, they come anyway. Who is surprised at that?

First, why is it our problem to feed hungry Mexicans? We have plenty of hungry Americans to feed first.

Second, the fact that it is hard to come here doesn't mean that you get to break the laws. It is hard to do lots of things, but we do it anyway.

Third, the fact that they attempt to come here illegally doesn't surprise me. The fact that they are able to be so successful at it because we don't stop them does surprise me.

Now, who is the bad guy in all this? I suggest to you, that it's NOT the guy who blows leaves and sends his money to Mexico. I suggest that it's the CONGRESS who dillydallied for 50 years while the borders remained porous.

Agreed, to a point. The guy who is here illegally is STILL breaking the law. But yes, I believe that Congress is very much responsible for not having tightened the borders for the past 50 years. A few presidents are culpable as well.

Did that benefit everybody??

In truth, the only ones who benefittd were the illegals and the people who employed them. Do you really think that those business owners gave us lower prices because they had cheaper labor? Or did they charge the same high price that they would have if their emplyees wee making a market wage, but pocket the additional profit? I think it's the latter. So regular Americans who were being serviced by these employers didn't benefit at all.

Sure - until we were attacked. Oh, I kept hearing from people about the jobs they were taking from American workers. But, I never saw any American workers going out to the fields to apply either. If they did, they would have gotten work.

Really? At market wages? Would they have gotten jobs at market wages while there were illegals willing to work for below minimum wage? The reason that Americans don't apply for those jobs is because the employers don't pay a fair wage. Eliminate the illegal labor, and the employers will HAVE to pay a fair wage, and Americans will do the work.

But, I digress...

There are medicines that you can take for indigression. ;)

What we need is COMPREHENSIVE immigration reform and secure borders. That'll fix the border issues for the future. But, the problem is how do we clean up the mess that CONGRESS created for us over the last 50 years??

Well, we don't punish the innocent victims, which is my leaf blower. He didn't do anything that you wouldn't have done yourself in the same circumstance.

I'm going to call you on that last sentence. My family has been in that circumstance and didn't do the same thing. They waited till they could come here legally. It took years, and when they came here, they had children to take care of and the clothes on their backs and not much else. But they were here legally, and they made use of the opportunities.

Ok, that's another thing you don't get. Let me see if I can help again. If your family was hungry, and the only thing separating you from that help wanted sign over there is an imaginary line in the sand, you'd cross that line. Yes you would. You know it, and I know it.

No I wouldn't. We didn't.

So, you can yell about your laws on your books and how bad these illegal immigrants are, but it's pure hogwash. The real villains are the CONGRESS who did NOTHING.

Agreed. So let's do something about it. Like stop the flow of illegals.

Yes, they shouldn't be here. But in the real world, we're not going to deport them, and we're not going to put them in jail.

Why not? Deport them, I mean. What's wrong with deportation?

I know you want to punish them.

No I don't. I just don't want them here illegally.

You right wingers just can't see past those laws your wrote down. Ok, tell me, in the REAL world, how are you going to do that - even if they deserve punishment, which they don't?

A typical charter bus can hold 50 or so comfotale reclining passenger seats. The cost of a used charter bus in good working condition is roughly $15,000. A fleet of 400 of them would cost roughly $6,000,000, and could carry approximately 2,000 passengers one way. Assuming two trips per day, every day, it would take approximately 7.5 years to deport all 11 million. If we assume a 10% downtime-rate for the busses and the drivers, we can complete the job in 8.4 years. I'm willing to give the project 10 years to be completed.

Along the way, we can also supply them with food for the trip, at roughly $10 per head. (A couple of burgers and a side of fries would cost less than that.) The total cost for that would be about $110,000,000.

Maintenance on the vehicles and salaries for the drivers would be another $10,000,000, all in. I'll assume $30,000,000 for fuel.

Total cost of the project:

Capital costs for purchase of busses: $6,000,000
Maintenance and Salaries: $10,000,000
Food for deportees: $110,000,000
Fuel: $30,000,000

Grand Total: $156,000,000.
Total expense per year (over 10 years): $15.6 million.

Just to be on the safe side, let's quadruple that figure, in case there are typical government cost overruns. That's $62.4 million per year, just to be on the safe side. (And you know I like being conservative. :D )

Cost per year of services provided to illegal immigrants: Approximately $240 BILLION. (Estimated by the Heritage Foundation at $2.4 trillion over the next decade.)

You do the math, excon. Which of the two options is really the harder to do, deportation or citizenship and ongoing government support?

Or we could spend $500 per illegal immigrant for a Grehound ticket to Mexico for a total cost of $5.5 billion... over 10 years that's $550 million per year. That's still cheaper than the $240 billion cost of letting them stay.

Let's give 'em citizenship and move on.

Excon

How does that solve the problem? And what do we do when the next bunch of illegals come here over the next 10 years? Give them citizenship too? When does it stop?

Giving them citizenship is a good solution if all you want to do is stop worying about who's legal on paper. But if your real interest is security, economy, health issues, etc. granting mass citizenship to illegal immigrants is a disaster.

Elliot

[Dark_crow]

New report out and it don't look good.

There is a worker present in 78 percent of immigrant households using at least one welfare program.

www.sandiegocountynews.com

[interinfinity]

I'm from houston where 1/2 the population seems to be illegal. And I don't really even give it a second thought. Now I'm in Louisiana, where I don't see even 1/10 the amount of south of the border looking people as I did in Texas. Why do so many of you living in states that don't border mexico even care about this issue.

[interinfinity]

First, why is it our problem to feed hungry Mexicans? We have plenty of hungry Americans to feed first.

The only hungry americans I know smoke crack and pan handle outside the walgreens I buy cigarettes at.

[inthebox]

In spite of all the yelling about doing nothing about illegal emigrants: In the past two years, the immigration agency has dramatically stepped up arrests of illegal immigrants in workplaces and in their homes.

I would like to find out what you think; if undocumented workers were pouring into the professional, elite ranks of this country, if they were coming into the professor ranks or the lawyer ranks or the doctors' ranks or the business executive ranks, would this have been solved a long time ago?

It solves itself.

Medically speaking, whether foreign or domestic you have to have proof of education and training. Also you have to prove this to state liscensing boards. I'm pretty sure it would work the same way with lawyers and universty professors.

What is interesting is that, were it not for foreign medical grads, a lot of primary care residencies would not fill, and the VAMC would also have a lot of vacancies.

You can see this in the NBA. Foreigners are welcome and increasing, but they have to have the skills first.


Now when it comes to washing dishes, or cleaning rooms, or blowing leaves - it just does not take much education or training.

[Galveston1]

I hear Oklahoma has about solved its illegal immigrant problem. According to what I have read, illegals are leaving OK rapidly. Coming to Texas, I imagine. Point is, we don't have to wait for the Feds to solve the problem. States and local governments can do the job.

[Dark_crow]

Three months after the law took effect Nov. 1, anecdotal indications are mounting that many of Oklahoma's estimated 100,000 illegal immigrants have fled the state. But so, too, are indications that the new law is triggering unforeseen consequences.

Nation & World | Oklahoma asking, where have the immigrants gone? | Seattle Times Newspaper

[tomder55]

This is also true with the mere threat of a new law in Az.

Today in Investor's Business Daily stock analysis and business news

Seems enforcement does work after all .