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ScottGem · Nov 28, 2007, 11:59 AM

Let me put it this way, you can disagree with what Lisa and I are telling you all you want. And I understand that without a judicial ruling I can't absolutely prove what we are saying.

But the thing here is helping the OP. And your advice is not. Advising the OP to just kick out the tenant is going to open them up for a lawsuit. Both Lisa and I are 100% sure of that. Frankly the combined 30 years experience of your people doesn't impress me. I suspect you are not asking them the right questions.

As for your scenario, Lisa is right there as well. Cops will err on the side of caution, they will not remove anyone if there is some shred of proof they live there. And a closet full of clothes is lots of shreds. Take this one step further. The cops are not going to ask for a copy of the lease. They are going to ask the OP; "does this woman live here?" If the OP answers negatively they have lied to the police. Are you sure you want to advise them to do that? I certainly wouldn't give such advice.

Now lets say they kick her out and she does sue. So she goes before a judge and the judge asks the OP; "did you enter into an oral agreement to rent a room to this woman?" Are you now encouraging the OP to commit perjury?

I'm sorry, but this is very bad advice. There are so many ways it can backfire on the OP! Better for the OP to play it safe and follow the law to the letter then risk giving the subtenant fodder for a suit.

Emland · Nov 28, 2007, 12:40 PM

I went up the ladder further and have inquired with my broker's residential property expert for further clarification. Her gut reaction was the same as mine - the unwanted person is a guest. She has never run into a situation like this and I have piquéd her interest. We are both researching it now to satisfy our curiousity and make sure we understand the law.

Emland · Nov 28, 2007, 12:57 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

They are going to ask the OP; "does this woman live here?" If the OP answers negatively they have lied to the police. Are you sure you want to advise them to do that? I certainly wouldn't give such advice.

No, there is no need to lie. She was a guest but now has made herself unwelcome.

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I'm sorry, but this is very bad advice. There are so many ways it can backfire on the OP! Better for the OP to play it safe and follow the law to the letter then risk giving the subtenant fodder for a suit.

I fear your advice to go through formal eviction will get her property manager's attention and make the OP vunerable to eviction herself for violating her lease. PM are at the courthouse every week. They will undoubtly notice a suit with their property address.

ScottGem · Nov 28, 2007, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Emland

I Her gut reaction was the same as mine - the unwanted person is a guest.

I'm really bothered by this. Because this reaction is just so totally wrong. A guest is someone you invite to stay, generally for a short period. A guest would be someone you knew prior to inviting them to stay. This person is so clearly not a guest in any legal and practical sense.

andrea_2007 · Nov 28, 2007, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

I'm really bothered by this. Because this reaction is just so totally wrong. A guest is someone you invite to stay, generally for a short period of time. A guest would be someone you knew prior to inviting them to stay. This person is so clearly not a guest in any legal and practical sense.

Maybe I should call the police station and ask them if they can help me in this situation. If not, I will have to go through the long eviction process as Scottgem said.

ScottGem · Nov 28, 2007, 01:22 PM

Originally Posted by andrea_2007

Maybe i should call the police station and ask them if they can help me in this situation. If not, i will have to go thru the long eviction process as Scottgem said.

The police will not help you, but it won't hurt to call them. But I would not take legal advice from a policeman. The problem is this is a civil issue, not a criminal one. Unless it becomes criminal the police don't get involved. The only reason to call the police is if she gets physically abusive. Then you call them immediately.

Who you really need to consult is a real estate attorney. I totally and completely believe that you need to go through a formal eviction. Anything less will potentially open you up for trouble.

You didn't answer some of the speculation here. You are renting, correct? And does your lease permit sublets or roomers? Did you give her a receipt for what she has paid? Does she get mail at the residence?

andrea_2007 · Nov 28, 2007, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by ScottGem

The police will not help you, but it won't hurt to call them. But I would not take legal advice from a policeman. The problem is this is a civil issue, not a criminal one. Unless it becomes criminal the police don't get involved. The only reason to call the police is if she gets physically abusive. Then you call them immediately.

Who you really need to consult is a real estate attorney. I totally and completely beleive that you need to go through a formal eviction. Anything less will potentially open you up for trouble.

You didn't answer some of the speculation here. You are renting, correct? And does your lease permit sublets or roomers? Did you give her a receipt for what she has paid? Does she get mail at the residence?

Yes, I am renting but my lease does not permit sublets. I wrote her a receipt but she forgot to take it. In regard to her mail, she have a mail box and doesn't get any mail at my apartment.

Emland · Nov 28, 2007, 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by andrea_2007

Maybe i should call the police station and ask them if they can help me in this situation. If not, i will have to go thru the long eviction process as Scottgem said.

The police can't and won't give you legal advice. Perhaps a call to your local fair housing office could lend guidance.

Emland · Nov 28, 2007, 02:51 PM

I just got off the phone with my broker and the news isn't good. He says the problem isn't about whether the unwanted person has established residency (which they haven't, in VA that is). She doesn't have any grounds there. The OP's problem is that the lease was violated. All she has to do is call the real landlord and tell them the OP has been collecting money from her for rent and they will most likely start eviction proceedings against the OP.

He confirmed my understanding that you can't give something you don't own. Just like you can't sell property you don't own, you can't grant a lease for property that isn't yours UNLESS the lease specifically says you can.

His suggestion was that you give the unwanted person a written notice and make it as legal looking as you can. Google "rental termination letter." Be generous and give her 30 days and try to get her out with no distress and you may get lucky and she may not call your leasing office. Pay to have your locks changed and never violate the lease again.

andrea_2007 · Nov 28, 2007, 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by Emland

I just got off the phone with my broker and the news isn't good. He says the problem isn't about whether the unwanted person has established residency (which they haven't, in VA that is). She doesn't have any grounds there. The OP's problem is that the lease was violated. All she has to do is call the real landlord and tell them the OP has been collecting money from her for rent and they will most likely start eviction proceedings against the OP.

He confirmed my understanding that you can't give something you don't own. Just like you can't sell property you don't own, you can't grant a lease for property that isn't yours UNLESS the lease specifically says you can.

His suggestion was that you give the unwanted person a written notice and make it as legal looking as you can. Google "rental termination letter." Be generous and give her 30 days and try to get her out with no distress and you may get lucky and she may not call your leasing office. Pay to have your locks changed and never violate the lease again.

Me and my husband decided to leave this apartment and move to another one in 15 days. I am going to give her 15 days notice and then if she refused, I will call the landlord and tell him the story.

andrea_2007 · Nov 28, 2007, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by andrea_2007

Me and my husband decided to leave this apartment and move to another one in 15 days. I am gonna give her 15 days notice and then if she refused, i will call the landlord and tell him the story.

But what if she screams again at my husband. Do you think we should call the cops for that? We are quite tenants but she is not, she is a loud person and I am afraid that our neighbors get annoyed from this.

LisaB4657 · Nov 28, 2007, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by andrea_2007

Me and my husband decided to leave this apartment and move to another one in 15 days. I am gonna give her 15 days notice and then if she refused, i will call the landlord and tell him the story.

That is not enough notice. You have to give her 30 days notice.

And if she doesn't leave after 30 days, and you are already gone, you're still going to have a problem. If the landlord has to deal with her then you are going to owe the landlord rent for the entire time that she remains in the apartment, plus you will owe the landlord legal fees and even possibly damages he may incur as he tries to get her out.

If she trashes the apartment after you leave you will be responsible for that damage as well.

Please understand this... you are her landlord and she is your tenant in this apartment. Whether you legally leased to her is not the issue. If you want her out you have to follow the laws and legally evict her. That means giving her a 30 day written notice and then filing a lawsuit for eviction if she doesn't leave on her own. If you and your husband run away to a different apartment that will not make the problem go away.

Since you have already decided that you're prepared to move to a different place, try talking to your landlord about the situation now. Maybe the landlord will have other options for you to consider.

LisaB4657 · Nov 28, 2007, 03:48 PM

Originally Posted by andrea_2007

But what if she screams again at my husband. Do you think we should call the cops for that?. We are quite tenants but she is not, she is a loud person and i am afraid that our neighbors get annoyed from this.

If she starts screaming again then don't hesitate to call the police.

Emland · Nov 28, 2007, 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by andrea_2007

Me and my husband decided to leave this apartment and move to another one in 15 days. I am gonna give her 15 days notice and then if she refused, i will call the landlord and tell him the story.

I think you are making a bad situation worse, andrea. She has no obligation to your landlord. They are going to sue YOU for the lease and any damages she makes. When is your lease up?

andrea_2007 · Nov 28, 2007, 04:39 PM

Originally Posted by Emland

I think you are making a bad situation worse, andrea. She has no obligation to your landlord. They are going to sue YOU for the lease and any damages she makes. When is your lease up?

My husband just called me and said that he told the landlord about her and he told him "it's you apartment you do whatever you want as long as you pay me the rent on time".

andrea_2007 · Nov 28, 2007, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by andrea_2007

My husband just called me and said that he told the landlord about her and he told him "it's you apartment you do whatever you want as long as you pay me the rent on time".

We can't afford staying at this apartment anymore. We have to leave and I am sure she is going to leave too. The landlord wants his rent on time and we can't pay him, even with her taking the other room. We don't want to get evicted and have a bad credit. Having a roommate was a bad idea from the beginning but everything happens for a reason, you never know!

ScottGem · Nov 28, 2007, 05:53 PM

Ok, Several issues.

To Emland, I agree with everything the broker said, however (as has now been shown) the landlord may not care that the lease was broken. I said earlier that the subtenant can rat out the OP, but she has no legal standing with the landlord. If she were to rat out the OP (a moot point now) it would be up to the landlord as to what action to take.

To Andrea,
First, you have to give your landlord sufficient notice. 15 days isn't enough. Second, you HAVE to get the subtenant out first. If you don't, as the others mentioned, she can trash the place and leave YOU holding the bag because YOU are the tenant of record.

I'm sorry, but you opened yourself to this by not checking out the tenant. So you are basically suffering a landlord's worse nightmare. You might want to rent Pacific Heights with Michael Keaton, it could have been worse.

Finally, please do feel free to call the police if she gets physycal abusive or disturbs the peace. That may be (as I've said before) your best bet in getitng her out early if you can get a restraining order against her.