[jillianleab]

Are you faulting us because we exercise our rights? Last I looked we have a right to gather peacefully, we have a right of free speech and we have a right to practice our faith.

Did you object when feminists burned their bras to demand the freedom to kill infants it their womb?

Do you also object when gays parade up and down the streets demanding the freedom to have their cohabitation recognized as marriage?

Or do you simply object to Christians exercising their rights?

Sincerely,

De Maria

Not at all, I have no desire to take away anyone's freedoms. Christians have the right to protest, to boycott stores, etc just as much as anyone else. I was responding to Moon's statement regarding Christians protesting more than others was not factual, hence the fact her statement was quoted directly above mine.

For the record though, I think it's petty and childish to rip pages out of medical books, to steal books you don't like the content of and to destroy food you have not purchased as a form of protest. I believe, if those individuals were actually caught for their actions they could be charged for destruction of property or for theft. That's not the Christian way, is it? :)

[margog85]

Are you faulting us because we exercise our rights? Last I looked we have a right to gather peacefully, we have a right of free speech and we have a right to practice our faith.

Did you object when feminists burned their bras to demand the freedom to kill infants it their womb?

Do you also object when gays parade up and down the streets demanding the freedom to have their cohabitation recognized as marriage?

Or do you simply object to Christians exercising their rights?

Sincerely,

De Maria

No one is faulting you for exercising your rights. Just pointing out that the objection to 'Happy Holidays' is a far louder protest than those who are against 'Merry Christmas'. You have the right to protest whatever you want- just don't expect things to go your way when you're insisitng that your religion and only your religion be recognized at this time of year. It's not going to happen- you can say Merry Christmas all you want and no one will persecute you for it- but when a store associate wishes you well generically rather than making assumptions in regard to your beliefs and what you're celebrating, finding fault in them for that is wrong.

The examples you give are poor. The feminist and gay rights movements are efforts to acquire basic human rights for those who currently do not have them. This debate is insignificant in comparison. As Jillianleab said, the real outrage should be at the commercialism during your sacred holiday season, not what the store associate utters mindlessly 500 times a day as you pay for a cart load of unnecessary material items.

No one is trying to prevent Christians from exercising their rights- so please don't try to victimize Christians. In society and government today, it is really more along the lines of Christians trying to prevent those who are of alternate beliefs from exercising their rights- for example, since you brought it up, preventing gays from marrying because according to Christian morality homosexuality is a sin, and apparently Christian morality is the dictator of Federal law- but that's off topic, so let's not go there.

[margog85]

The fact is, it is Christians who respect others religions. Christianity respects and teaches freedom of conscience. That is why the founding Fathers created a nation where one may practice freedom of religion. Try practicing your faith in a Muslim nation or in an atheist state like China.

Really? Freedom of conscience? Perhaps doctrinally that is part of Christianity and Catholicism, but in practice?

You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways. 'Try practicing your faith in a Muslim nation?'

How about... try getting married in America if you gay? Ooops, can't, Christians who respect freedom of conscience are against that one!

And I did not make up things and attribute them to you- I posed a number of questions, things which could be deduced from things you said- and re-reading my post, they may not have been solely from your argument, but partially from yours and partially from those of others who have posted on this thread. I do apologize if it appeared to be accusations toward you only- the majority of my post was in response to yours, but it is possible that due to the number of people posting and the length of this thread, some things may have unintentionally been pulled in from the arguments of others.

So I do apologize there if it came off that way.

[jillianleab]

In an effort to not offend anyone and be "diverse" no one's uniqueness is recognized.

We are all commanded to be bland inoffensive people in the name of politically correct ideology/ religion that is forcing its belief on those that care about what matters most to us Christians - faith in Jesus Christ.

There is no "freedom FROM religion" in the constitution but a freedom of religious expression.

As to a "persecution complex" check this out

Gillian Gibbons at risk of more serious charges after letting her class of 7-year-olds name a teddy bear Muhammad

Though I think you are going a little overboard with your language ("commanded", "bland") I agree with you. The PC movement is a little nuts and there are far to many people from any and all sides which overreact.

But I have to ask, how is a minimum wage seasonal employee wishing you "Happy Holidays" taking away part of your faith? Is faith not a personal thing? Even if, say, the government said NO expressions of religion may be had, would that compromise your faith? Would you believe a little less if you were not allowed to wear a cross around your neck? I don't know you personally, but based on the responses I've seen you give in this site, I would say no, that's not going to shake your faith.

You're also right there is no freedom FROM religion, but employees of a store saying "Happy Holidays" is hardly restricting freedom of religious expression. Besides, even if the employees are ordered by the organization to say "Happy Holidays", as long as it's a private organization, they can do that. There is no prohibition of celebrating Christmas on your own time, just how the store wants people to be greeted. It's the same as when a store requires staff to say "Welcome to McDonald's how may I help you today?" If you don't like it, you are free to quit.

And sorry, but your "persecution complex" story doesn't apply - that situation is taking place in a foreign land which has no religious freedom. Horrible story, stupid charges, but it does not demonstrate how Christians specifically are being persecuted, especially in the US.

[De Maria]

Not at all, I have no desire to take away anyone's freedoms. Christians have the right to protest, to boycott stores, etc just as much as anyone else.

Good. That is all I wanted you to say.

For the record though, I think it's petty and childish to rip pages out of medical books, to steal books you don't like the content of and to destroy food you have not purchased as a form of protest. I believe, if those individuals were actually caught for their actions they could be charged for destruction of property or for theft. That's not the Christian way, is it? :)

Agreed. But there's no proof those things ever happened. Just one person's allegations.

But, are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Really? Freedom of conscience? Perhaps doctrinally that is part of Christianity and Catholicism, but in practice?

Yes. In practice. This nation and many other nations born of Christian values are where you can exercise your freedom of conscience.

You give examples of oppressive belief systems in other countries but that exists here too, just in different ways. 'Try practicing your faith in a Muslim nation?'

Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.

How about... try getting married in America if you gay? Ooops, can't, Christians who respect freedom of conscience are against that one!

All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.

They certainly have the right to protest our beliefs however. Somehow I doubt that one will ever become law. And if it does, I believe it will be the first one overturned by 2/3 majority as is our right.

And I did not make up things and attribute them to you- I posed a number of questions, things which could be deduced from things you said- and re-reading my post, they may not have been solely from your argument, but partially from yours and partially from those of others who have posted on this thread. I do apologize if it appeared to be accusations toward you only- the majority of my post was in response to yours, but it is possible that due to the number of people posting and the length of this thread, some things may have unintentionally been pulled in from the arguments of others.

So I do apologize there if it came off that way.

Apology accepted.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Okay, I wanted more opinions on this. My mom got this email and sent it to me:



I would rather say Happy whatever for each holiday then just say "Happy Holidays"
If people get so offended by saying "Merry Chirstmas" Dont they know that some people get offended if you say Happy Holidays? What do you guys think?

I've enjoyed the reparte' folks. If you address me in any messages, be aware that "Ah'll be bock!...." in ten days.

[margog85]

Not happy here are you? Funny how folks that are unhappy in the US won't leave.

The 'if you don't like it, leave' mentality is not necessarily one I agree with. How about, if you don't like it, change it? If you don't like it, and other people don't like it, work to make it better?

I am happy in America, but that doesn't mean it is perfect- no society ever will be, everyone will have qualms with something- which is why it is our duty to not just sit back and accept the things we dislike about our country and say 'well, it'll never be perfect, so why try?' but instead to do our part to make improvements. Leaving an imperfect country does nothing except appease those who are either too stupid to see the problems or too apathetic to care that problems exist.

All freedoms have a limit. The right to be married is limited by the sex of the individuals being married. That is what I believe.

And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief. I don't want to get into this topic here, it's completely unrelated. But evidently just another instance of the imposition of Christian morality upon secular culture.

[jillianleab]

Good. That is all I wanted you to say.



Agreed. But there's no proof those things ever happened. Just one person's allegations.

But, are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?

Sincerely,

De Maria

De Maria I think you need to read my sig and my posts a little more carefully. You have twice, in two separate threads taken what I've said and looked at it in a way that I have a negative view or hatred of Christians, or that I wish to take other's rights away. Nothing in my post about protests indicated whatsoever that I felt Christians shouldn't have the same rights as others, so please stop trying to paint me as someone who applies freedoms unequally. I said very clearly in my first post of the things Christians specifically were doing, I never said they shouldn't do them, so for you to ask if I think Christians should not be allowed to protest and then say "That's what I wanted you to say" is ridiculous and pompous. Read more carefully and you will understand the messages instead of reading what you THINK I'm saying and trying to stir up trouble.

You've done it again with "are you insinuating that only Christians do childish things?". Where in my post, in ANY post did I say or indicate that? And passing off the information I passed on about pages being torn from books as "one person's allegations" and there is no "proof" implies you think either 1. I'm a liar or 2. The staff at my county library is full of liars. But you apparently think everyone is "out to get the Christians" so of course this must be made up.

Either way, I no longer wish to discuss things with you, as you are rude and try to provoke people. Consider yourself officially added to my "ignore" list.

[Wangdoodle]

Every Who down in Who-ville, the tall and the small,
Was singing! Without any presents at all!
He HADN'T stopped Christmas from coming!
IT CAME!
Somehow or other, it came just the same!

And the Grinch, with his grinch-feet ice-cold in the snow,
Stood puzzling and puzzling: "How could it be so?
It came without ribbons! It came without tags!
"It came without packages, boxes or bags!"
And he puzzled three hours, `till his puzzler was sore.
Then the Grinch thought of something he hadn't before!
"Maybe Christmas," he thought, "doesn't come from a store.
"Maybe Christmas...perhaps...means a little bit more!" -Dr Seuss

[llyndzy]

I say don't give a shizzz about what people think, who cares if they get offended, everything used to be normal, but now its all a buch a ********* <not good.

Its tradition
Screw them and go on ignore all the shiz they throw at us
ILL FIGHT BACK... WILL YOU!

[labman]

It just struck me. Do we want a non Christian wishing us a Merry Christmas just to give them or their employer a better shot at our dollar? If somebody can't give me a Merry Christmas from their heart, do I want it?

[MoonlitWaves]

Quoted from Jillianleab
"Really? Because it's Christians I see on the corner with signs protesting movies or policical actions. It's Christians who declared the "War on Christmas" when the STORES decided to say "Happy Holidays". I've never seen or heard of anyone causing a ruckus because a store says "Merry Christmas", but there has been a "War" declared for saying "Happy Holidays". I've also seen very little protesting from other religious groups about what is taught in schools, what books are in our libraries"

Think about this for a minute. What you are seeing is the protest from Christians about stores not saying "Merry Christmas". But you forget to think about why it was changed to "Happy Holidays" in the first place. Why was it changed in the first place? It's more than likely a combination of things. One reason could be that the store owners do not wish to acknowledge just one belief. It could also be that those who are not Christian protest the saying of "Merry Christmas" since they do not celebrate Christmas. Whether it's for the better or no the point is Christians aren't the only ones protesting.

I'm not sure if it was you but someone asked would I or do I refuse to shop at these stores the rest of the year. This could have been a general question to anyone who answers too so I will answer. I don't refuse to shop anywhere, anytime of the year. It's not a big deal for me to hear "Happy Holidays". I am also all for fairness, especially when it concerns those things which are important, such as religion. I have respect because I want respect. If you read the other thread in the Christianity topic you will see that I am a Christian who respects that prayer was taken out of school as a set time/group activity or however you phrase it. I have that respect because was it prayer in/for a different religion than mine I too would do the same protesting that was done to have prayer done away with as a set time. That's off the topic I know, but the point is I have respect for other people's right to their religion. What my argument was about, and I know I am repeating myself, is this... (1)No matter what you do you usually step on toes. For example; if you take away "Merry Christmas" you have stepped on Christians toes to please non-Christians. If you continue to say "Merry Christmas" you have stepped on non-Christian's toes. So how do you completely justify either one? You go with the lesser evil right? "Happy Holidays" basically respects all beliefs during this season. And I agree with that. I am defending the Christian thinking not only because I am a Christian but because whether you have made the better decision or not you can't fault someone for agreeing or disagreeing. Their beliefs make them think the way they do and they have a freedom to that. Let'em protest because they are standing up for what they believe in whether it's agreed upon or not, whether it's the best decision or not (I mean this as within the law). Think it ridiculous or absurd all you want, but they have just as much right as you have to disagree with them. See what I mean? (2) My argument was also this... Someone had said that Christians were making a big deal out of the greeting thing. My argument was that it seems to me that those who protest the saying of "Merry Christmas" is making the bigger deal as Christmas will still be all around them. How can hearing a Merry Christmas greeting bother them to this extent when until the Christmas season is over with they will see it everywhere they turn. It was simply a rebuttle against the statement that a big deal was being made from Christians and it may be, but we aren't the only ones.

".... Just a little story for you, my mom works for the county library system. When Christians find books they don't like in the library, they make a fuss about it and demand the book be removed. If it is not removed, they check the books out and never return them, or rip out the offending pages (like medical books depicting genitals). I also remember hearing about Christian groups going into grocery stores, filling their carts with frozen foods, and leaving them in the aisles to protest the sale of (I think) Harry Potter books in the grocery store. So maybe there's no "official statistic" about Christians and protest, but it certainly seems they are the group who is the most vocal."
This, I agree, is way out of hand. Like I said earlier whether we think it ridiculous or not people have a right to protest and should be respected for standing up for what they believe in. I don't agree when they break laws like stealing books, destroying property, etc. I don't even agree with rudeness and cruelty in protesting even if it's within the law. I believe that Christians like everyone else should stand up for what they believe in, explain why they believe the way the do and why it, in their mind, would be the better thing, but as Christians we should not lose our focus on what Jesus would have done. He most definintely would have told you the better or right way but He would have done it nicely, in a civil fashion, with loving kindness and tenderness. Never would he have stolen a book. He knows we have free will and even when He was on this earth, Truth right in front of their faces, he kept with freewill. We know that because there were still some who denied Him. This is not to say He doesn't or didn't ever get angry, but angry or no He could have forced belief in His truth, but he didn't.

"But I have to ask, how is a minimum wage seasonal employee wishing you "Happy Holidays" taking away part of your faith? Is faith not a personal thing? Even if, say, the government said NO expressions of religion may be had, would that compromise your faith? Would you believe a little less if you were not allowed to wear a cross around your neck? "
I know you were addressing someone else with this but I would like to say something on it. The same questions could be asked to everyone else. Does hearing "Merry Christmas" lessen your faith in your religion/God? Does it even affect those who believe in no God at all? Again, this is what I meant by a two way street. Not all can be pleased. If you please one you displease another. Therefore how do you justify the decision made to allow one and not the other?
Let me ask this question... I know that the US does not have a national Religion like other countries, but there still could be a freedom of religion and still have a national religion. What I am getting at is this... If Christianity was the US national religion would non Christian's still protest the "In God We Trust" on monies? Would they still protest creationism being in public schools? Prayer? Remember you still have the freedom to believe what you want. What I am getting at is, does "In God We Trust" violate this right? Does ELECTIVE prayer in school truly violate this right? Even when there was prayer it was not forced. Does the teaching of an ELECTIVE religion course violate freedom of religion? Does hearing "Merry Christmas" violate this right? I know this goes against separation of church and state, but even then a certain religion was not forced. Children still were not forced to pray, take religion courses, people aren't forced to celebrate Christmas, etc. Creationsim is not fact is the argument I hear, but to those who believe it, it is a fact. Forget separation of church and state for a moment. Tell me how you can possibly say that the teaching of some people's belief of evolution is any better or more appropriate or should be the only teaching than other's belief in creationism? Some may not want their children to hear the idea of creationism, but the same can be said for evolution. I know it may be hard to think about no separation in church and state, but bear with me as I have a point. There is a reason our founding fathers put "In God We Trust" on monies, there is a reason why religion and prayer was initially allowed in schools, etc. Why do away with that? Whether you agree or not, believe or not. Why do away with that? How does keeping these things around violate anyone's right? No one is forced to do anything involving any certain religion. Why separate church and state to begin with if no one is forced to be involved religiously?
This is just my opinion, but hear me out... I believe separation was done because there were people out there who simply did not want religion (mostly Christianity simply because this was what was in the schools and on money) in anything they did/do. Notice I said WANT because they weren't forced, rights never violated. How is their want any better than the want of keeping things how they were/are? Therefore I will say it again, it may be thought that Christians make a big deal with certain things, but to me, the continued doing away with Christian things is making a big deal.
So I say this last thing... Christians may protest many things, but think about it... whether you agree with the Christian view or not... the more time that passes the more Christianity is being taken away publicly. Christians don't want this because of the obvious. All Christians are doing is trying to keep laws, things, ways, whatever you want to say in our beliefs because that's what we agree with and believe in. That's what we feel is the best thing. Whether they stick or not, whether they are agreed upon or not, whether they are the right things for all or not, it is simply our beliefs in which some of us protest in hopes that people will see things the way we think they should be. I will say that some try to push this on everyone, not giving people the freedom to believe what they wish. I don't agree with this, but I do think that as long as it is civil there is absolutely nothing wrong with stating your opinions, beliefs, wants, etc in hopes that people may see it your way.

[jillianleab]

Think about this for a minute. What you are seeing is the protest from Christians about stores not saying "Merry Christmas". But you forget to think about why it was changed to "Happy Holidays" in the first place. Why was it changed in the first place? It's more than likely a combination of things. One reason could be that the store owners do not wish to acknowledge just one belief. It could also be that those who are not Christian protest the saying of "Merry Christmas" since they do not celebrate Christmas. Whether it's for the better or no the point is Christians aren't the only ones protesting.

I think I said it before, but maybe I didn't - I've NEVER seen someone protest a store for saying "Merry Christmas". I'm not saying it hasn't happened, but I've never seen/heard about it, which leads me to believe the STORES are the ones who decided to say "Happy Holidays" as a way to include their other customers in well-wishings. So, if the STORES made the decision because they want to be more inclusive, no, it's NOT because of protest from non-Christians.

I'm not sure if it was you but someone asked would I or do I refuse to shop at these stores the rest of the year. This could have been a general question to anyone who answers too so I will answer. I don't refuse to shop anywhere, anytime of the year. It's not a big deal for me to hear "Happy Holidays". I am also all for fairness, especially when it concerns those things which are important, such as religion.

It was me who asked, but it was a general question, not to anyone in particular.

I have respect because I want respect. If you read the other thread in the Christianity topic you will see that I am a Christian who respects that prayer was taken out of school as a set time/group activity or however you phrase it. I have that respect because was it prayer in/for a different religion than mine I too would do the same protesting that was done to have prayer done away with as a set time. That's off the topic I know, but the point is I have respect for other people's right to their religion. What my argument was about, and I know I am repeating myself, is this... (1)No matter what you do you usually step on toes. For example; if you take away "Merry Christmas" you have stepped on Christians toes to please non-Christians. If you continue to say "Merry Christmas" you have stepped on non-Christian's toes. So how do you completely justify either one? You go with the lesser evil right? "Happy Holidays" basically respects all beliefs during this season. And I agree with that. I am defending the Christian thinking not only because I am a Christian but because whether you have made the better decision or not you can't fault someone for agreeing or disagreeing. Their beliefs make them think the way they do and they have a freedom to that. Let'em protest because they are standing up for what they believe in whether it's agreed upon or not, whether it's the best decision or not (I mean this as within the law). Think it ridiculous or absurd all you want, but they have just as much right as you have to disagree with them. See what I mean? (2) My argument was also this... Someone had said that Christians were making a big deal out of the greeting thing. My argument was that it seems to me that those who protest the saying of "Merry Christmas" is making the bigger deal as Christmas will still be all around them. How can hearing a Merry Christmas greeting bother them to this extent when until the Christmas season is over with they will see it everywhere they turn. It was simply a rebuttle against the statement that a big deal was being made from Christians and it may be, but we aren't the only ones.

I've already said I fully support one's right to spend their dollars where they want, to protest, etc. If someone doesn't want to shop in stores that are run by black people, that's their right. They have the right to have that opinion and I have the right to think they are mistaken. They have the right to disagree with me. I'm not trying to say Christians should be FORCED to shop in stores which say "Merry Christmas" but rather to (hopefully) get through WHY the stores do such a thing and why it's not necessarily a demonstration of a "War on Christmas" or an example of Christian persecution. You're right, you can't make everyone happy, but when it is the STORE making the decision to use whatever greeting they want, is it necessary to declare it a "War"? Is it necessary to get upset? That's the behavior that I don't get; I really, truly, don't understand why anyone would care what someone says to them when it is a friendly greeting and it is someone you don't even know. That goes for the use of "Happy Holidays" "Merry Christmas", whatever. If you don't like it don't shop there, but why decalre a "War"? Why cause a public outcry? Aren't there more important things you could focus your energies on? Why not spend your dollars elsewhere and move on if it bothers you so much? (BTW, by "you" I mean the collective "you", not you specifically.)

This, I agree, is way out of hand. Like I said earlier whether we think it ridiculous or not people have a right to protest and should be respected for standing up for what they believe in. I don't agree when they break laws like stealing books, destroying property, etc.

I'm glad we both agree this behavior is unacceptable! :) Protesting is one thing, but destruction of property as a means of protest is quite another!

I know you were addressing someone else with this but I would like to say something on it. The same questions could be asked to everyone else. Does hearing "Merry Christmas" lessen your faith in your religion/God? Does it even affect those who believe in no God at all? Again, this is what I meant by a two way street. Not all can be pleased. If you please one you displease another. Therefore how do you justify the decision made to allow one and not the other?

No, hearing "Merry Christmas" doesn't cause me to pause for a moment, it doesn't change my personal beliefs whatsoever. My point in saying that is, if the STORE decides to say it, why do you (collective you) care so much? Does it hurt you inside to hear "Happy Holidays"? Does it compromise your beliefs? If not, what difference does it make what the stores say? I think that's pretty much the root of it - I just don't see what the big deal is. Leave it up to the stores on how inclusive/exclusive they want to be.

Let me ask this question... I know that the US does not have a national Religion like other countries, but there still could be a freedom of religion and still have a national religion. What I am getting at is this... If Christianity was the US national religion would non Christian's still protest the "In God We Trust" on monies?

It's important you know "In God We Trust" was added to our money in 1957. "Under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954. Neither has anything to do with the fouding fathers.

You've gotten into some other issues (creationism, etc) that go pretty far off topic and have been discussed in other threads. So, in an effort to keep this thread on track, I'm not going to address those points. If, however, you want to start a new thread about those points and if the US had a national religion, I'd be happy to join it and address them there.

So I say this last thing... Christians may protest many things, but think about it... whether you agree with the Christian view or not... the more time that passes the more Christianity is being taken away publicly. Christians don't want this because of the obvious. All Christians are doing is trying to keep laws, things, ways, whatever you want to say in our beliefs because that's what we agree with and believe in. That's what we feel is the best thing. Whether they stick or not, whether they are agreed upon or not, whether they are the right things for all or not, it is simply our beliefs in which some of us protest in hopes that people will see things the way we think they should be. I will say that some try to push this on everyone, not giving people the freedom to believe what they wish. I don't agree with this, but I do think that as long as it is civil there is absolutely nothing wrong with stating your opinions, beliefs, wants, etc in hopes that people may see it your way.

I agree, there is nothing wrong with wanting to state your beliefs publicly, protest to what you don't believe in, and try to get the law to side with you. The problem is when extremists (on either side) want it "their way" at the exclusion of all others, with no flexibility and at the violation of other's rights. But here's the thing about Christianity being taken away publicly (as you put it); if you mean no public displays of the Wise men and so on, it's important to remember that as our society progresses, we are realizing other's beliefs and cultures are just as important as those of Christians. Businesses are starting to realize the importance of non-Christians who shop in their stores; communities are realizing the prevalence of non-Christians and want to demonstrate they appreciate EVERYONE not just some. As such, what used to be public Christian displays shift to secular displays. Just a few decades ago atheists couldn't be "public" or outspoken, we STILL can't get a set in Congress. So I think society is making a shift because of demand to more secular and more inclusive. Think about women's rights and their role in society now as opposed to fifty years ago. It's a natural shift as societies grow and change.

[MoonlitWaves]

It's important you know "In God We Trust" was added to our money in 1957. "Under God" was added to the Pledge in 1954. Neither has anything to do with the fouding fathers.

You've gotten into some other issues (creationism, etc) that go pretty far off topic and have been discussed in other threads. So, in an effort to keep this thread on track, I'm not going to address those points. If, however, you want to start a new thread about those points and if the US had a national religion, I'd be happy to join it and address them there.

Yeah, your right about the monies and pleadge, but it still goes collectively with the other things I said. My intentions were not to discuss these topics with you on this thread individually. I was using those examples and asking those various questions as a whole to go with what I had said above those questions about, "Does having them stay lessen your (collective you) faith or lack of?" This was in response to you asking to same question first, but about them being removed, taken away, changed, etc. Which you answered by saying that it was about society changing to recognize all beliefs. Do I make sense? Though I wish things could be the way they are/were because it is my belief, I like things that way, I can respect that our country is further recognizing that it has people with many different beliefs.
The point is this, I have respect for all beliefs because I want respect for mine. I will talk about my beliefs, I will say why I disagree or agree, but I am not a protester (sign holder, marcher). Maybe I should be, but I am not. But even though I don't go so far as to hold signs and march I can understand why Christians do. I relate to their beliefs and feelings. Like I told you before I don't mind hearing "Happy Holidays" (in other words I'm not protesting it), but I was discussing this with you on the side of Christians because I can understand why they would rather hear "Merry Christmas" instead. Why some do protest things of this nature. This is of course civily. I think sometimes people forget to think about the shoe being on the other foot. Extremists want to force their beliefs, but they forget to think about how they would feel if someone was trying to force them to the other way of thinking. I also think that sometimes when something is protested like prayer out of schools, no "In God We Trust", no more "Merry Christmas" greetings that people fail to realize this is a change, that for those who believe or agree with, a change that's not wanted. Because they disagree or protest it they are sometimes thought of as ridiculous, going to far (I'm not talking about exremists), people wonder why they aren't passive, why the big deal, etc. My thoughts were that no matter which way you agree neither is lesser of a big deal, niether is ridiculous and niether should be passive in their beliefs. Therefore I say this... In the whole scheme of things not hearing "Merry Christmas" is not a big issue considering all things, but it still has a part in things being changed, things that some do not want changed. So, I can understand why one would disagree with not hearing Merry Christmas when checking out. Why one would try to keep it the way it is.

[jillianleab]

I understood why you brought up the money and other issues thing, but given that to respond to that effectively we'd get WAY off topic, I thought it best to just move on. I didn't mean to imply you were trying to take the thread off topic, or that I didn't understand your point. :)

I understand why some would prefer to hear "Merry Christmas" too - that's what they've ALWAYS heard, that's what they are USED TO hearing, and people don't like change. People, in general, are quite resistant to change, especially when it's in regards to something they don't have a problem with. But society must change in order to grow. I just really wish the people who get in such a tizzy about something like this would stop and consider what it means in the grand scheme of things. In the grand scheme of things could you spend your time fighting for something that makes an actual DIFFERENCE in your life or someone else's? Something that directly has to do with your faith, not something that has been introduced and popularized by commercialism. Say, for example, your local mall decided to not have Santa posing for pictures this year. You get ticked because you take your kids EVERY year and you want your Santa picture! But is it worth the fight, the time, the energy and so on to DEMAND Santa be in the mall when Santa isn't even an actual Christian icon? Of course coming to that line of thinking requires looking at things from outside of the box, which many people don't do. It's also embracing (or just accepting) a change that you didn't want and don't agree with. That's tough for people, I get that. But it doesn't mean that with a bit of reflection and less prompting from media talking heads (Bill O'Reilly comes to mind) we can't simply move on to other issues.

Some people might think that by my example I think people should just "give up" when change they don't like happens. I'd like to clarify - I think it's more important to pick your battles than fight them all. If you want your picture with Santa SO BAD that it's worth your time, energy and effort to fight for it, well, go right ahead. Same with the "Merry Christmas" thing. But I think if most people actually stopped and thought about it, they could probably think of something more deserving of their time. I prefer to spend my time here fighting for things that will make a real difference in the world, and in my opinion, what the clerk at Best Buy utters as I collect my bags makes no difference in my world whatsoever.

[michealb]

Don't Christmas and new years get celebrated within a week of each other. Don't most fundies celebrate the new year and Christmas. So maybe the store is saying Happy Holidays(plural as in two or more) to you in order to include the other holiday that celebrate a week after Christmas.

Wasn't Christmas only adopted by the Christians as a way to convert pagans that had a really good holiday that they didn't want to lose when the switched religions. Just like easter. Haven't all you fundies wondered what a rabbit that brings eggs has to due with the resurrection of Jesus?

[De Maria]

The 'if you don't like it, leave' mentality is not necessarily one I agree with

Not necessarily? But sometimes you do agree with it?

. How about, if you don't like it, change it? If you don't like it, and other people don't like it, work to make it better?

And that is what Christians have been doing from the birth of this nation. Christians left a tyrannical country to come to America to practice freedom of religion.

I am happy in America,

Very good.

but that doesn't mean it is perfect- no society ever will be, everyone will have qualms with something- which is why it is our duty to not just sit back and accept the things we dislike about our country and say 'well, it'll never be perfect, so why try?' but instead to do our part to make improvements.

Correct.

Leaving an imperfect country does nothing except appease those who are either too stupid to see the problems or too apathetic to care that problems exist.

People have left imperfect countries before when the imperfections got unbearable.

As for me, I'm pretty tired about people beating up America in comparison to other countries because there is NO COMPARISON. America is head and shoulders above any country with respect to freedom and human rights.

And that is your belief, based upon Christian morality, which you feel should be imposed upon others who may not share your belief.

Again, you accuse me of imposing beliefs on someone? Is it just your style or do you not know how to articulate your sentences to say what you actually mean? Or do you not understand what I'm saying?

I do not impose my beliefs on anyone. The fact is, that the United States is ruled by majority. Gays have the right to believe that gay marriage is valid. I have the right to believe the opposite. And since we, Christians and other people share the belief that only man and woman may be bound as husband and wife, and we are still the majority we have designed the government with that in mind.

When those who believe that gays have the right to marry come to power, then they may design their government any way they wish.

As for me, I believe gay marriage is wrong, I believe it is bad for the country, I believe it would undermine our economic system and that is what I deduce logically. In addition, it is against my religion. I am free to hold those beliefs and to tell others about my beliefs. That is the beauty of this country.

I don't want to get into this topic here, it's completely unrelated. But evidently just another instance of the imposition of Christian morality upon secular culture.

Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule. You would be real happy if you could impose your beliefs on everyone. But our constitution protects us from people who want to impose their beliefs upon us.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

De Maria I think you need to read my sig and my posts a little more carefully. You have twice, in two separate threads taken what I've said and looked at it in a way that I have a negative view or hatred of Christians, or that I wish to take other's rights away. Nothing in my post about protests indicated whatsoever that I felt Christians shouldn't have the same rights as others, so please stop trying to paint me as someone who applies freedoms unequally....

You referenced my last post to you. I asked a question. Are you referring to something else I may have said to you previously? Please provide the reference because I don't know what you are talking about. As the saying goes, "I slept since then."

Sincerely,

De Maria

[NeedKarma]

America is head and shoulders above any country with respect to freedom and human rights.

Nah, other countries are equal or better - Canada for instance.

Apparently you simply aren't happy with the idea of majority rule.

That seems to be a dominant theme for you. Have you ever travelled somewhere where you were the minority?