[speedball1]

Guys!

We're all beating our heads against a brick wall here. Does anyone ,including myself, think that any arguments that we come up with is going to change anyone's opinion? How do I know this? Because I've been on the front lines for 13 years after I retired from plumbing on the other side of fundamental Christians and I've heard all the auguments both pro and con.
I'm going to share a piece of my life with you to show you how I came to the above conclusion.

I retired as a construction foreman in 1988. I used to drive by the Sarasota Women's Health Clinic and see 50 to 75 protesters with signs and gross pictures ganging up on a single female as she attempted to enter the clinic compound.
One day I stopped and listened to what they were shouting at the girls. "Whore! slut! murderer! were just a few of the nasty things that were heaped on them as they walked in. They were throwing tiny plastic dolls dipped in red fingernail polish in open car windows as they drove into the parking lot.
When I volunteered as a escort the next day I had no idea it would last for thirteen years and that I would end up working with our local police and be responsible for sending a lot of the protesters to jail. In 1993 when the "lifers" begain killing doctors and escorts, the clinic owner put me on staff as head of security and chief escort for the four clinics that he owned.
In my job I have gone head to head with most of the heavy hitters in abortion protesting. Randel Terry of Operation Rescue, Flip Benham of Rescue America, Joe Scheidler of The Pro-Life Action League, Tom and Linda McGlade of Missionaries for Life to name a few. All used guilt as a club and religion as a threat. I'll not go into the insults, the threats, the stalking of both are patients and staff members, except to say the threats, intimidation, guilt and physical violence were just some of the weapons used against clinic staff and patients.
In my job I have been attacked three times, shot at twice, went through four bomb scares and had two anthrax letters come to our office, one of which we opened and got white powder on myself and the office manager. The letter inside the envelope condemed abortion and informed us we had just been exposed to anthrax and were going to die. It took three days for Hazmat to analyze the substance and report it was harmless. Have you any idea the terror involved in not knowing if you would live or die?
In my capacity as head of security, I have sent many protesters to jail and spent a lot of free time in court testifying against them. Some for violent action but most for harassment and trespass after warning. I kept at my job because I believe in women's rights. For far too long they were second class citizens, not being able to vote, own property or have control over their own bodies.
Women have fought too long and hard, have suffered too many hardships attaining these rights to have even one of them taken from them.
I'm retired again. I've run my race and looking back on it, remembering the hundreds of frightened girls I've escorted past screaming whackos, I can feel proud that in my small way I have helped keep women's rights where they belong. With women, and not with some middle-aged white man shouting threats and insults outside a clinic.

So when I say that all the lodgic and reason in the world isn't going to change a believers mind I know what I'm talking about. They have a right to their beliefs and opinions and this right should be defended at all costs. They just don't have the right to force their religious beliefs in the school system under the guise of science. I'm with the poster that wanted religion taught in the school system, but not in a science or biology class. I would like to see all religions taught as a separate subject and not snuck in under the fence as warmed over creationism. I have the utmost respect for believers, they are happy with the church fellowship and the feeling that they are being watched over and at times I envy them. But my opinions were formed many years ago and I'm too old to change them now. I apologize if I've ruffled any feathers by this post but I think this thread should be dropped and I've given my reasons. My warmest thoughts to my fellow experts on this Thanksgiving Day. Tom

[RickJ]

Excellent points, everyone.

Frankly I think debate or discussion of such issues is good. Sometimes people are so set in their ways they just don't know why they believe what they claim to.

"Cause it's how I was taught" is the answer too many people give for what they believe about such things as this.

Everyone can learn.

Heck, I respect a person who vehemently disagrees with me using good arguments than I do someone who believes like I do but preaches it's truths because he "knows it in his heart".

Ok, I'm rambling... enough. :o

[RickJ]

Ok... so I wasn't done yet, then...

I'll finally vote: Undecided. But only because I think ID might be better taught (if it were taught) under History rather than Science. :D

[ScottGem]

Tom,
First let me convey my kudos and congratulations to you for what you have done with a part of your life.

I have always objected to anti-abortionists calling themselves "pro-life". It is abundantly clear, from their actions, that they care little about life and only about their fanatic religious fervor against abortion. Your points about their use of guilt and intimidation rather than compassion are telling.

I also agree that generally, we are beating our heads against the proverbial wall. But, I still think its worth the exercise. This thread (currently) has 466 views and 40 replies. That's more than a 10:1 ration between views and replies. That shows there are people reading who are not commenting. If even one of those people starts to truly think and apply some logic to these arguments rather than a blind faith in religious teachings, then its worth it.

I also agree that religion should be taught in schools, but as a comparative course that teaches about all relgiions and what each stands for and its history. The teachings of any specific religion is the province of church and home.

Scott<>

P.S. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

[NeedKarma]

Wonderful post. I share your stance.

[RickJ]

Scott, you make an excellent point - that goes along with mine:

I will not be involved with people who believe as I do but twist the "pro-life" angle. Con to "pro-life" would be "pro-death", and I know well that most people who do not believe as I do are not "pro-death".

And dittos: a very Happy Thanksgiving to all!

[ScottGem]

Rick,
I do not condone nor approve of abortion. If asked I would advise anyone not to take that step. But the keyword there is advise. Not cajole, not intimidate, not harangue, etc. Simply advise. I would then respect that person's decision and understand that it is THEIR choice to make, not mine.

Scott<>

[RickJ]

I'm with you there.

Yes, the decision is theirs and only theirs, but it's never quite as simple as advising them then respecting their decision.

Frequently there is much between those two steps... the tough part being when their next question, after our advice, is "why would you advise me to not have an abortion".

That's where the tough juggling act of support, education, kindness, tact and fact comes into play...

[speedball1]

Rick says, "Yes, the decision is theirs and only theirs, but it's never quite as simple as advising them then respecting their decision.
Frequently there is much inbetween those two steps...the tough part being when their next question, after our advice, is "why would you advise me to not have an abortion".
That's where the tough juggling act of support, education, kindness, tact and fact comes into play."

I don't agree. The "juggling act" comes into play when a outsider attempts to insert himself into a families private medical decision and control it.

And Scott says, "I do not condone nor approve of abortion."
Nobody approves of abortion, (with the possible exception of clinic owners) Even we who work in clinics wish that access to abortion wasn't necessary. It's not abortion that we approve or condone, it's choice that we approve and condone. I have worked in abortion clinics for 13 years and if any female in my family had a problem I would hope it could be resolved without resorting to abortion. However, I would always want her to have that option. I would hope that some day the hard line "choicers" and the hard line "lifers" could get together and eliminate the need entirely for abortion. But as it stands now each sides point of focus is 180 degrees apart. While we focus on the woman the lifers focus on the unborn. They may claim to have the women's best interest at heart but when push comes to shove the fetus comes first and the woman follows behind. If the hardliners would let go and allow the moderates,( of which I'm one) to interface with each other and hash out a solution that would be acceptable to both sides then perhaps the conflict could be resolved. Sadly I don't see that happening as long as we have a president that sucks up to the hardliners in the religious right for a block of votes. Hey! Don't blaime me! I voted for Kerry. Regards, Tom

[RickJ]

"attempts to insert himself "..

Scott said "if asked" - and to that I replied.

And to the comment

"Nobody approves of abortion, (with the possible exception of clinic owners) Even we who work in clinics wish that access to abortion wasn't necessary."

... I disagree whole heartedly.

Clinics generally do not advise or encourage other options.

[NeedKarma]

Clinics generally do not advise or encourage other options.

That's because your health care system is privatized and the owners are driven to make a profit.

(For disclosure's sake: I live in Canada. :) )

[speedball1]

Rick,

"Clinics generally do not advise or encourage other options."

And you know this how? Rick, your prejudice is showing. That's where you're entirely wrong. The above statement was right off the top of your head and probably based on your personal belief or off a pro life site but was it based in fact or truth? Hell no it wasn't! I think the only access that you have to a woman's clinic is what you read in the pro life propaganda sites.
Let me tell you how it really goes. When a woman first comes into a clinic she first takes a pregnancy test. If it's positive then she,(and a companion if there's one) will go into pre consul where she will be advised of the procedure. At that time she will be advised of the other options available to her. Birth, adoption or termination. If there is any hesitation on her part or if her companion has any doubts or attempts to talk her out of it the interview is terminated on the spot and she is asked to go home and rethink her decision. There's a sign posted in the Ladies restroom that they can see at the time they give a urine sample for the pregnancy test. I know it by heart.
It reads. " Remember you do have choices. You can give birth, adopt or abort. This is your choice and yours alone. we will respect and help with any one of the three that you choose. we are here to help. The Clinic Staff "
So please don't attempt to tell someone who has worked in clinics for 13 years how a clinic's run. And PLEASE don't post up a "copy and paste" from a pro life site. I've seen most of them. Tom

[Curlyben]

WoW not much to do with the teaching of ID as science but WoW!!

[ScottGem]

Clinics generally do not advise or encourage other options.

Rick,
I would definitely bow to Tom's greater experience in these matters. But I know, from my own research, that is not true of clinics run by Planned Parenthood. The procedure Tom described is typical of PP run clinics.

As for profit motive, its my understanding that a large proportion of abortion clinics are not-profit. Many of the women seeking abortion in clinics are lower income or teens. Given the dangers incurred by doctors. I sincerely doubt that profit motivates them.

Scott<>

[RickJ]

Tom, I'm not sure what's got you so worked up. I've copy and pasted nothing - and I know far more than you think.

You blow my mind that you claim to know "what goes on in clinics", yet can say I don't. So how many of the thousands of abortion clinics of this nation have you worked in Tom? Clearly neither of us knows what goes on in all of them... only the ones we have knowledge about.

How can you justify what you're typing supposedly in answer to what I've said? You're reading stuff that's not there.

When I first got into this, I said that you made a good point... next piggybacking on Scott's comments about what to do when someone asks!. then you get on a tirade about people "when a outsider attempts to insert himself into a families private medical decision and control it"

Then you're accusations!

Tom, you should be ashamed of yourself. I've not made one single comment about you yet you've accused me of making things up and all but called me a jerk.

Your explanation of what goes on in your clinic is informative... but it has NOTHING to do with what I said at all.

People at abortion clinics do NOT advise against having an abortion.

Read the post, Tom. THAT's what it was about.

[Curlyben]

Guys we seem to be RUNNING away from the question in hand ;)

[speedball1]

Ricki,

You posted,
"Clinics generally do not advise or encourage other options."(first Post)
"People at abortion clinics do NOT advise against having an abortion."(Last Post)

Your first post was way off base and just for your information I have posted my credentials for making my statements. I still have to see yours.
Your second post was correct, only faith based CPC's attempt to control choice. We give options not advice.

You are also correct when you say, " You blow my mind that you claim to know "what goes on in clinics", yet can say I don't. So how many of the thousands of abortion clinics of this nation have you worked in Tom? Clearly neither of us knows what goes on in all of them...only the ones we have knowledge about."
I interfaced with clinics in four major clinics here in Florida and every year at clinic conventions we hear different methods discussed from clinic all over the United States. So I resent you telling me I don't have knowledge about "what goes on in clinics". We share knowledge with each other because we're always on the defensive against attacks from the religious right, anti abortion groups and just plain homicidal wackos. Abortion clinics interface and share knowledge and procedures for self protection.
So don't tell me that I don't know what goes on in the clinics that I haven't worked at.

"...next piggybacking on Scott's comments about what to do when someone asks! ...then you get on a tirade about people "when a outsider attempts to insert himself into a families private medical decision and control it""
I apologize for that but most of the people that I've dealt with attempt to control the decision, and that's wrong. You are correct when you said, "Yes, the decision is theirs and only theirs, but it's never quite as simple as advising them then respecting their decision.
Frequently there is much between those two steps... the tough part being when their next question, after our advice, is "why would you advise me to not have an abortion".
That's where the tough juggling act of support, education, kindness, tact and fact comes into play.""

But here , once again your bias comes into play. ""why would you advise me to not have an abortion?"" There are many good and valid reasons for advising FOR a abortion. So if the only "advice " a person can give is "don't get one" then yes that person is attempting to control a personal medical decision under the guise of advice.

"you've accused me of making things up and all but called me a jerk."

Rick I would never call you a jerk. I have too much respect for you for that, but you must realize this. I'm a old man, I've been many places, lived many life styles and have been exposed to many belief systems. I have learned from abortion debate forums not to post up anything that can be challenged or that I can't back up with facts or knowledge. So yeah! I got a little pissy when you questioned my statements about clinics. And began to make statements of your own without either knowledge or facts. But CurlyBen's correct, this discussion has veered way off the subject, let's let it drop here. Let's bury the hatchet and kiss and make up. Kissy-Kissy! Tom

[RickJ]

It's 6 feet under.
:p

[Curlyben]

This is starting to get silly:
"University of California sued by monkey haters
The University of California is facing legal action in the US for promoting a commonly-held scientific theory.

Jeanne and Larry Caldwell are suing the university over its "Understanding Evolution" website which offers information and advice to teachers."

Full story here

What is it with America where people use legal action at the drop of a hat??

Sorry to the American users here, but I am lost for words.
Does the phrase "common sense" mean nothing ?

[RickJ]

You are right.

The blight of ridiculous lawsuits is one of America's black eyes.