[jasondbel]

I would woop your fu#$$# . How would you like me hitting on you? I bet you wouldn't hit me but you would hit a kid though? PUSS@

[jasondbel]

There is no need to hit a defenseless kid. If a child acts out regularly its because of the parents. Society created rules and laws and a conduct code that children are to be taught. That is not how man was born. They are being what humans were originally born to be. One must mold and condition them into "society's" standards and hitting them is NOT how you enforce that lifestyle. Its not their faults that we have to train them into people of government. Take ME behind the barn... My son is four. He has been all over the place like a monkey. Untamed gorilla. I have never hit him. Once I went to spank him. I thought to myself what if some big guy came swinging at me and being his father doesn't give me the right. You are portraying acts of violence on a child at that. FR you are a creep. You and people like you ever lay a hand on my boy you'll be in jail sick twisted..

[jasondbel]

Its still displaying acts of violence. Tell a child constantly not to hit then some bigger person hits him what cr@p

[l99057j]

Sorry for the long post, but I can only relate my feelings about this by using our family as an example.

When my children were very young, only toddlers, my wife and I were very consistent about saying "No" when one of our children was about to do something they shouldn't. If they persisted, a spat on the hand was given. At such a young age, you cannot reason with a child. You cannot explain to them that if they touch the electrical outlet, they will be shocked and expect them to understand that. You cannot explain to them that if they climb on a certain piece of furniture it could topple and they could be injured. At that age, they only understand things on a stimulus/response level. They quickly learned that when mom or dad said no, if they didn't change their behavior an unpleasant response was coming. Even at such a young age, because we started early and were consistent, we rarely had to spank. And by rarely, I mean almost never.

As they grew and began to learn to speak, less emphasis was placed on spanking (although it was used occasionally) because now we could talk to them and try to explain why we didn't want them to do something. Now we could tell them the electrical outlet would hurt them. Although they still didn't understand the physics of electricity, they got the general idea we were trying to convey. Over time, they learned that when Mom and Dad told them not to do something it wasn't because we were mean but because we were trying to spare them some type of injury or pain far greater than a spanking. This engendered trust, and respect. From that point on, there was just no need for spanking. Our kids were unbelievably well loved and they knew it. Avoiding punishment was no longer the goal... doing right for the sake of doing right was much more central to their lives.

The kids are both old enough (10 and 14) now that I don't think physical punishment has any place. I can't imagine spanking either of them being productive, at this point it would amount to bullying. On the rare occasion that one of them needs discipline we withhold privileges. My oldest is sans cell-phone right now for letting his grades slide a bit. 24 hours after taking it away and reading him the riot act about how important education is, etc. he basically told me the next day that he deserved it and that he hadn't been applying himself. He realized the choice he made, and the consequences of that choice. Contrast that with so many kids nowadays who have no concept of consequences or personal responsibility.

So, yes, I do believe spanking when used properly is OK. Honestly, I think people who don't discipline their children at an early age are more guilty of abuse. You didn't see the rampant behavioral problems we have today back when parents cared enough... that's right cared enough to discipline their kids. Will you have kids that are spanked who grow up to be hell raisers? Of course. Will you have kids who were never spanked and turn out to be fine, upstanding, wonderful people? Again, of course you will. But when I look at the whole of our society, I can't help but notice so many of our troubled people didn't have love, structure, and/or discipline in their lives as children.

If you don't want to spank, don't spank. But try to recognize that there is a difference in spanking a child and willfully abusing a child. There is a huge difference between popping a child on the rear and leaving a child emotionally scarred for life. Try to recognize that you probably don't have all the parenting answers yourself, and leave some room for others to raise their own children the way they see fit.

[jasondbel]

Greatly put. I agree.

[Synnen]

What I'd like to know from the people so absolutely against spanking is this:

How big a step is it from telling someone what discipline they can and can not use on their child to telling people who can and can not have a child?

I, personally, think that "time-out" is the biggest chamberpot there is. I've never yet seen a kid it works on, and frankly, those kids are the ones that grow up thinking they're entitled to whatever.

So--since I think that time out "ruins" children for productive society, should I then be able to go to the government and say "OMG! Parents are ruining their kids with this form of punishment! All it's teaching them is that if they do something wrong, they'll be JAILED for it, and put someplace they don't want to be for 10 minutes! How is that teaching them right from wrong? It should be outlawed!"?

I just don't think that a spanking is abuse. I'm sorry, but I just can't see it that way. I think it's a greater abuse of a child to spoil them, and let them always have their way, and to relent on punishment because you feel bad about it. I knew a girl that would get grounded for 2 weeks when she did something wrong, but she was never ACTUALLY grounded for longer than 2 days. Her mom would relent EVERY time. A spanking, at least, is a punishment that is over and done with, done at the time of the crime, and teaches consequences to children that can not be reasoned with.

Would I spank a teenager? Absolutely not.

Would I spank a toddler? Absolutely.

Are you picturing a spanking as a couple of quick swats? Or are you picturing me whaling the tar out of my kid with a belt? There's just a BIT of a difference there!

[excon]

What I'd like to know from the people so absolutely against spanking is this:

Hello:

What I'd like to know from those spankers, is if hitting is OK, why is it illegal to hit your kid the day they turn 18? I mean, if hitting is good, why should you stop? What difference does one day make?

excon

[jasondbel]

I agree

[jasondbel]

Yelling and spanking a kid-u have some issues pal.

[Momma to three]

What I'd like to know from the people so absolutely against spanking is this:

How big a step is it from telling someone what discipline they can and can not use on their child to telling people who can and can not have a child?

Calling hitting wrong has nothing to do with telling someone whether they can have children.

I, personally, think that "time-out" is the biggest chamberpot there is. I've never yet seen a kid it works on, and frankly, those kids are the ones that grow up thinking they're entitled to whatever.

Guess what? It's not a choice between spanking or time out. I have never used EITHER as a discipline tool in over 22 years.

Are you picturing a spanking as a couple of quick swats? Or are you picturing me whaling the tar out of my kid with a belt? There's just a BIT of a difference there!

Hitting is hitting... there are levels of it, sure, but it's still hitting.

[l99057j]

Hello:

What I'd like to know from those spankers, is if hitting is ok, why is it illegal to hit your kid the day they turn 18? I mean, if hitting is good, why should you stop? What difference does one day make?

excon

I think this is a great question, but you're directing it to the wrong people. Most of the people I've spoken with who use or support spanking only use it for a short time... well before the age of 18. Like a lot of our laws that are age-based, this one is flawed.

Hitting isn't OK... you have heard MANY times throughout this conversation that hitting and spanking are two completely different things in two completely different contexts. Using the example someone else mentioned, would you equate time-out with imprisonment? Of course not. They are two completely separate things. I respect others' viewpoint and choice not to use it, and they should respect mine.

[bushg]

Hello:

What I'd like to know from those spankers, is if hitting is ok, why is it illegal to hit your kid the day they turn 18? I mean, if hitting is good, why should you stop? What difference does one day make?

excon

Since I recently gave you a greenie... the system would not allow it again. But I thought this brilliant answer was worth reposting.:D

[excon]

Hitting isn't ok... you have heard MANY times throughout this conversation that hitting and spanking are two completely different things in two completely different contexts......

Hello l:

I'm just a dumb old exconvict, but I can't see any difference between spanking and hitting. But, that's just me.

excon

[jasondbel]

One would have to literally beat my toddler for him to feel anything. I assure you the kid feels no pain. What, toddler years are how long? You can't go that long not hitting. From the mintue they are a certain age one must tell them NO everyday of their life. All they are doing is exploring new sensory motor skills. Listen to yourselves I Won't BEAT ANYONE THAT CAN HIT ME BACK BUT I WILL HIT SOMEONE THAT CANT! Just a quick swat. No, you don't swat a human being. You don't ever raise your hand at anyone. If you are always there with your child to redirrect, childproof your home (a toddler is fascinated that it can walk. You walk outside. The Child darts off and lets loose. The child makes it to the street and by now you must be pretty angry because the child could have ran into the street so you angrily stoop down and the swat the kid) that's B.S. That was the parents fault. You know the toddler is a baby but can walk. They have been in this world for two years. They got excited because they got to go outside and the minute they have a joyful moment because of the parents mistake the toddler pays for it. My child will never be in the road. There are plastic electrical outlit covers. If my toddler is acting out its because he is tired, he is not gettting attention or was influenced by bigger kids obviously ones that were spanked. Never hit a kid in front of people who said that? My god if you can't do it in front of people then it is probably WRONG. Hitting is a violent aggressive act. If the kid really makes you mad where you have to hit him then you have issues not the child and need professional help or need your AS@ kicked by someone bigger than you.

[Synnen]

So... when my toddler reaches for the hot stove for the 15th time in 2 minutes, after I've gently pulled him away 15 times, it's bad to show him that the hot stove hurts by slapping his hand rather than letting him touch it?

Seriously--the whole "never hit" thing is ridiculous. Like I said in a much earlier post--I wasn't spanked often as a child. I was spanked probably 5 times. And I STILL remember each of those lessons.

As far as the people screaming that they'll call 911 for someoen spanking their kid in a store--great! Since I already do that when I hear a kid crying for more than 5 minutes in a store because their parents won't take them and just LEAVE so that I can shop in peace. Ignoring a child is a form of abuse too, isn't it? I mean, if you can't make them stop crying instantly, isn't that abusing them?

As to the person that told me that it wasn't a choice between a spanking and time out: It was an example. I think timeout it crap, and other people think that spanking is crap. I think time-out teaches kids nothing, they think spanking teaches kids nothing.

As far as "Calling hitting wrong has nothing to do with telling someone whether or not they can have children. ": actually, yes, it does. You want to tell people what they can and can not do when raising kids. I think incarcerating children is wrong, and I bet I could convince others to join me in that thinking. Then we get together, and go to the lawmakers, and get "time-outs" made illegal along with spanking. Someone else, then, feels that yelling at your kids, for whatever reason, is wrong. Kids don't respond to yelling as well as they respond to quiet conversation, and yelling is a form of abuse--so pretty soon, someone will decide that no one should be able to yell at their kids. And what about sending kids to bed without their supper? OMG--that's denying them FOOD! That's ABUSE! And grounding--you're DESTROYING your kid's self esteem by not letting them go to the prom! People shouldn't be able to take away someone else's most precious things, that's stealing! And prom is one of the most precious things there is to a high school girl! If stealing is WRONG, then stealing opportunities is wrong too--and we'd better outlaw that. Same sorts of arguments for washing a kid's mouth out with soap.

About the only form of punishment I can think of here that would NOT be abuse is writing a letter of apology EVERY time the kid does something wrong. But--then the parents had better be willing to do that same thing every time they hurt their child's feelings.

It comes down to the fact that a spanking never hurt a child. For me, the spanking was always more about the loss of dignity than it was about the pain in my rear end. Sure, there are other ways for a kid to lose his dignity--but my point is that if you can tell one set of parents that their way of raising their kid is wrong, then you can tell ALL parents that their way of raising their kid is wrong. Abuse is different than discipline, and abuse SHOULD be stopped--but telling someone how to discipline their own child is a gross invasion of privacy. And--once they can tell everyone HOW to raise their kids--it's not that big of a jump to WHO can raise kids.

[Momma to three]

Spanking never hurt a child? Not a fact... I'll give you that spanking never hurt YOU, since you have made that assertion here. But you can't say for a fact that it has never hurt any child... I know children who have been emotionally scarred by it... and yes, I'm talking about "just" as spanking, as opposed to a beating.

And yes, IMO, it IS bad to hit a child to teach him that something is off limits to him. But that's just my parenting philosophy as opposed to yours. I see that sort of tactic as scaring them into doing things or not doing them, which is yet another reason I didn't use it.

And while the whole "never hit" thing may be ridiculous to you, it has worked for our family for 22 years, and my children intend to carry it on into the next generation as well, where I hope it will also work for them.

[jasondbel]

That is a stage and before you know it they have outgrown it without being hit.

[jasondbel]

I also agree completely.

[Fr_Chuck]

Yes pure bull, a spanking ( not a beating) never hurts a child, in fact it is often a very good thing, since it is a very good method of controlling behavior for the child's protection. I am sure there are quack doctors that will come up with anything that can harm a child. Same ones that want two mommies or two daddies as a good family I would assume.

But in fact I would go as far as I did five or six pages ago, and say that it is more abuse to the child by not spanking them, since there is no proper control and proper behavior modification to keep many children from destructive behavior.

I am sure that anything can be blamed by a older teen or adult as an excuse for their poor choices, but if they try and say that a parent who loved them enough to try to make them do right is the issue, it is merely a sad excuse that a liberal mind eats up.

[jasondbel]

The kids know no better. My son was in a room with three boys all older than he. I was watching the interaction around the corner along with one of the boys mother, the bigger kid bites my son 5 yr age difference. My son bites the kid back. The kid starts screaming runs around the corner and said my son bit him. I don't know I use to be a boxer. I was search and rescue in the Navy. I can assure you that a two yr old is by no means going to cause me to raise my hand. If that was done back in the old times then maybe we need to take a step back and reevalute because the last time I looked the streets out there are not too pretty. One of my best friends dad was the principal of a jr high. The best parents one could imagine. My friend was never hit. He played and mastered all the sports made good grades. He would never lay a hand on someone. Now today, 18 yrs later that kid who would never hit someone is now and has been a Navy seal with a medal of honor. Hitting a two yr old does not produce a tough man. When my sons eyes first opened he didn't see his mother nor his dad he saw a football. I played football with him everyday since. Show me a five yr old that can stick with him or throw better than him ill give you a hundred bucks. My son also had baby boxing gloves. If he gets mad he will put on the gloves and ill let him punch me in the face till he laughs. He can do a combo, throw a perfect straight spiral. He almost back flip. Its called being prepared for a child and quality time. To have to spank a child shows that the parent is being neglectful in their jobs of beinga parent. Don't punish the kid because of your mess up.