[Bobbye]

ENGRAVING OF THE STONES OF THE "URIM & THUMMIM!"
WHAT WAS THE METHOD?

One of the greatest forms of Bible Study or Christian discussion is not merely questions/answers or debate; rather, a contribution of ideas. I've found this lacking (to my dismay) in the majority of the forums of which I've participated for the past five years. Thus, I offer the following as a "contribution of ideas" regarding the engraving of the stones on the Breastplate of The High Priestly garment ("The Breastplate of Judgment). The stones were referred to as "Urim and Thummim" or "lights and perfections."============.

THIS ARTICLE IS FROM THE FOLLOWING:
Holy Temple Studies: The Priestly Garments by Rabbi Chaim Richman
Reprinted from The Restoration newsletter, September, 1996 (Tishrei, 5757)
An In-Depth Focus on the Priestly Garments.

THE HIGH PRIEST’S BREASTPLATE ("BREASTPLATE OF JUDGMENT")
“And you shall make the breastplate of judgment, the work of an artist; after the manner of the ephod shall you make it: of gold, sky-blue, dark-red, and crimson dyed wool, and of twisted linen shall you make it” (Ex. 28:6,15).

This garment is called choshen mishpat in Hebrew, which means the “breastplate of judgment” or “decision.” Square-shaped and worn over the heart, it was called so because of the unique role which it played in helping to render fateful decisions. According to the Biblical instructions and rabbinical traditions, the breastplate is a patterned brocade like the ephod. The threads of its fabric are gold, sky-blue, dark red and crimson wool, and twisted linen. The garment itself is set with four rows of small square stones, in settings of knitted or braided gold. Each row contained three stones—totaling twelve stones, one stone representing each of the twelve tribes of Israel. The name of the corresponding tribe was engraved on each stone.

The Stones:
“And you shall set it with four rows of mounted stones; the first row: a ruby, an emerald, and a topaz. The second row: a carbuncle, a sapphire, and a quartz crystal. The third row: a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst. The fourth row: a chrysolite, an onyx, and an opal. These stones shall be placed in gold settings. THE STONES SHALL CONTAIN THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, ONE FOR EACH OF THE TWELVE STONES; EACH ONE’S NAME SHALL BE ENGRAVED AS ON A SIGNET RING, TO REPRESENT THE TWELVE TRIBES” (EX. 28: 17) “The Engraving of a Signet Ring”

WHAT PROCESS IS THIS ENGRAVING, SIMILAR TO THAT WHICH APPEARS ON A SIGNET RING?
In a Talmudic analysis (BT Sotah 48:B), the sages taught that because of these instructions, the words were not written with any sort of ink. Nor were they carved out or chiseled with any metal tool—for the verse (ibid. v. 20) specifically indicates that the stones must be set into their golden settings while yet “in their fullness;” in order to carve or to scratch out from the surface, some of the stone itself would inevitably be missing.

Rather, a most unique method was utilized to carve the names into the stones of the breastplate. It was accomplished naturally, by one of G-d’s creations. A WORMCALLED "THE SHAMIR" existed that could cut stones merely with its glance. According to the rabbis, this creature was brought into existence during the original six days of creation, but ceased to exist following the destruction of the First Temple.

It is taught that Moses himself used the shamir for the stones of the original ephod and breastplate while yet in the desert, for the Tabernacle.
“Initially, the words are written on the stones in ink. Then the stones are simply exposed to the shamir (worm), and the letters are cut into the stones automatically, of their own accord…like a fig which ripens and splits open in summer; it splits open but yet no part of it is missing. And a valley splits open during the rainy season, but it too lacks nothing” (BT Sotah 48:B)—thus the stones remained “in their fullness.”
~ ~ ~ ~

[MaggieB]

Bobbye,
Thanks for the interesting post. I had read an article similar to this one
Several years ago when we were having a Bible Study at our church. All
Who attended were intrigued by the information we garnered from each
Other in our sharing time.

It is very good to bring different information to the board to discuss, things
That may have come to mind and we pondered but we had not really checked it out so to speak. :)


God bless,
MaggieB

[Bobbye]

Thanks, Maggie.

We can learn so much from others. I look forward to other postings that are a bit out of the ordinary re Scripture; Christianity, etc.

Be blessed. Happy Thanksgiving!
We in America should bow our knees every day to our loving Heavenly Father who placed us in such a wonderful land. GOD BLESS AMERICA!

Bobbye

[Morganite]

ENGRAVING OF THE STONES OF THE "URIM & THUMMIM!"
WHAT WAS THE METHOD?

One of the greatest forms of Bible Study or Christian discussion is not merely questions/answers or debate; rather, a contribution of ideas. I've found this lacking (to my dismay) in the majority of the forums of which I've participated for the past five years. Thus, I offer the following as a "contribution of ideas" regarding the engraving of the stones on the Breastplate of The High Priestly garment ("The Breastplate of Judgment). The stones were referred to as "Urim and Thummim" or "lights and perfections."============.

THIS ARTICLE IS FROM THE FOLLOWING:
Holy Temple Studies: The Priestly Garments by Rabbi Chaim Richman
Reprinted from The Restoration newsletter, September, 1996 (Tishrei, 5757)
An In-Depth Focus on the Priestly Garments.

THE HIGH PRIEST’S BREASTPLATE ("BREASTPLATE OF JUDGMENT")
“And you shall make the breastplate of judgment, the work of an artist; after the manner of the ephod shall you make it: of gold, sky-blue, dark-red, and crimson dyed wool, and of twisted linen shall you make it” (Ex. 28:6,15).

This garment is called choshen mishpat in Hebrew, which means the “breastplate of judgment” or “decision.” Square-shaped and worn over the heart, it was called so because of the unique role which it played in helping to render fateful decisions. According to the Biblical instructions and rabbinical traditions, the breastplate is a patterned brocade like the ephod. The threads of its fabric are gold, sky-blue, dark red and crimson wool, and twisted linen. The garment itself is set with four rows of small square stones, in settings of knitted or braided gold. Each row contained three stones—totaling twelve stones, one stone representing each of the twelve tribes of Israel. The name of the corresponding tribe was engraved on each stone.

The Stones:
“And you shall set it with four rows of mounted stones; the first row: a ruby, an emerald, and a topaz. The second row: a carbuncle, a sapphire, and a quartz crystal. The third row: a jacinth, an agate, and an amethyst. The fourth row: a chrysolite, an onyx, and an opal. These stones shall be placed in gold settings. THE STONES SHALL CONTAIN THE NAMES OF THE TWELVE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, ONE FOR EACH OF THE TWELVE STONES; EACH ONE’S NAME SHALL BE ENGRAVED AS ON A SIGNET RING, TO REPRESENT THE TWELVE TRIBES” (EX. 28: 17) “The Engraving of a Signet Ring”

WHAT PROCESS IS THIS ENGRAVING, SIMILAR TO THAT WHICH APPEARS ON A SIGNET RING?
In a Talmudic analysis (BT Sotah 48:B), the sages taught that because of these instructions, the words were not written with any sort of ink. Nor were they carved out or chiseled with any metal tool—for the verse (ibid. v. 20) specifically indicates that the stones must be set into their golden settings while yet “in their fullness;” in order to carve or to scratch out from the surface, some of the stone itself would inevitably be missing.

Rather, a most unique method was utilized to carve the names into the stones of the breastplate. It was accomplished naturally, by one of G-d’s creations. A WORMCALLED "THE SHAMIR" existed that could cut stones merely with its glance. According to the rabbis, this creature was brought into existence during the original six days of creation, but ceased to exist following the destruction of the First Temple.

It is taught that Moses himself used the shamir for the stones of the original ephod and breastplate while yet in the desert, for the Tabernacle.
“Initially, the words are written on the stones in ink. Then the stones are simply exposed to the shamir (worm), and the letters are cut into the stones automatically, of their own accord…like a fig which ripens and splits open in summer; it splits open but yet no part of it is missing. And a valley splits open during the rainy season, but it too lacks nothing” (BT Sotah 48:B)—thus the stones remained “in their fullness.”
~ ~ ~ ~

Do I understand you to say that the twelve gemstones in the high priest's breastplate are urim and thummim?




MORGANITE

:)

[Morganite]

ENGRAVING OF THE STONES OF THE "URIM & THUMMIM!"
WHAT WAS THE METHOD?

~ ~ ~ ~

One source says:

“On his shoulders Aaron had two onyx stones, on which the names of the twelve tribes of Israel were engraved, six names on each stone, "for a memorial before the Lord," and on the mitre there was a gold plate, on which the words, "Holiness to the Lord" were engraved.”

That could be simple authorial misplacement,

Another source says:

The Urim and Thummim was carried in a pocket, called the "breastplate," either above or upon the ephod. This pocket was about nine inches square, and was adorned with twelve precious stones, on each of which was engraved the name of one of the twelve tribes of Israel.

Doctor Robinson (?), writes:

"Breastplate, a piece of embroidery about ten inches square (Ex. 28:15, seq.), of very rich work, which the high priest wore on his breast. It was made of two pieces of the same rich embroidered stuff of which the ephod was made, having a front and a lining, and forming a kind of purse, or bag, in which, according to the rabbins, the Urim and Thummim were enclosed.

The front of it was set with twelve precious stones, on each of which was engraved the name of one of the tribes. This ornament was never to be severed from the priestly garments; and it was called `the memorial.'" (See Ex. 28:12, 29.)

Exodus sets out twelve stones in the breastplate or pouch, yet, the deeper one pursues the Shamir, the greater the confusion grows.

From http://www.varchive.org/ce/shamir/shamir.html comes: [snipped for length]

“In the Talmud and the Midrashim there are many references to Shamir—unusual qualities were ascribed to it. For instance it reportedly could disintegrate anything, even hard, durable stones. The rabbinical literature describes it as being employed in engraving the breast plate of the High Priest.

“In the opinion of medieval authors, Rashi, Maimonides and others Shamir was a living creature, a worm.1 It was argued that Shamir could not have been a mineral because it was active. The Talmud transmits in the name of Rabbi Nehemiah the following description of the engraving on precious stones: The names of the twelve tribes were inscribed on the twelve semi-precious stones of the Urim and Tummim, the breastplate of the High Priest, not by carving, but by writing with a certain fluid and “showing” them to Shamir, or exposing them to its action. In the opinion of modern authors, the expression “was shown to Shamir”—“clearly shows it was the glance of a living being which effected the splitting of wood and stones.”2

It is admitted that “in the Talmudic-Midrashic sources it is never explicitely stated that the Shamir was a living creature.”3 An old source. The Testament of Solomon, a work written in the early third century of the present era,4 refers to Shamir as a “green stone.” But how could a greenish stone cut the hardest of diamonds with its glance? (Kryptonite?)

“The Shamir is as large as a barley-corn. It was created in the six days of Genesis. There is no substance hard enough to withstand its action”5

“{More than] a hundred and twenty-five years ago a Jewish scholar in Germany published a paper to prove that Shamir is a mineral,6 but more modern authorities agree with the medieval rabbis and say that they were “undoubtedly correct.”7

“The breastplate was engraved in the following manner. The letters were written with ink, and the stones were exposed, one after another, to the “glance” or radiation of the Shamir. This ink must have contained powdered lead or lead oxides.9 The parts of the stones which were unprotected by lead were disintegrated without leaving any dust particles which, according to the Tractate Sotah 48b, appeared especially wondrous. Those parts protected by leaden ink stood up in relief on the surface of the gems.

“The most precious possession of Solomon, his Shamir, did not survive With time it became inactive. The usual version of the story—the Shamir “disappeared,” does not correspond to the Hebrew text. The word batel used to describe the end, or demise, of Shamir10 has only one meaning: “To become inactive.”

“In 1896, one year after Wilhelm Konrad Roentgen of Wuerzburg discovered X-rays, Antoine Henri Becquerel, son and grandson of the great physicists, discovered radioactivity by accidentally placing a photographic plate near a uranium salt.

“Uranium at ordinary temperatures emits an invisible radiation which resembles X-rays, and can affect a photographic plate protected by a thin layer of metal.

“Marie and Pierre Curie, led by the conviction that in the midst of pitchblende, their source of uranium, there must be still another element of a much greater radioactivity, dedicated themselves to its isolation and in 1898 they succeeded in bringing forth the new element as its bromide salt-radium.

“Radioactivity is used in the treatment of neoplasms, while the destructive work of the uranium bomb thrown on Hiroshima also goes back to the discoveries of Roentgen, Becquerel, and the Curies.

“The information found in ancient sources—that Shamir was a greenish mineral, that it was as large as a barley-corn; that it could damage anything, even metals and other minerals, save lead, and the only protection could be found by placing Shamir in a leaden box; that it had a “glance” which disintegrated things without leaving filings or dust; that it became inactive after a period of four hundred years—all reveal the true nature of Shamir.”

Engraving was known to Israel. Exodus 28:11 With the work of an engraver in stone, [as] the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ouches of gold. Nothing special about that engraving.


MORGANITE

Full text and notes at the link site.

[Morganite]

[QUOTE=Bobbye]ENGRAVING OF THE STONES OF THE "URIM & THUMMIM!"
WHAT WAS THE METHOD?

http://www.jewishgates.com/file.asp?File_ID=1236


See how you like life down this rabbit hole.




MORGANITE

[Bobbye]

Urim & Thummim

Love the site! Plan to do more study re the stones for each -- particularly the purpose or meaning of the stones.

Thanks. You add much to this site!
Bobbye

[Hope12]

URIM AND THUMMIM

Objects used to ascertain the divine will when questions of national importance needed an answer from Jehovah.

As recorded at Leviticus 8:8, Moses, after placing the breastpiece upon Aaron, put the Urim and the Thummim in the breastpiece. While the Hebrew preposition here translated “in” can be rendered “upon,” the same word is used at Exodus 25:16 in speaking of placing the two stone tablets in the ark of the covenant. (Ex 31:18) Some have proposed the suggestion that the Urim and the Thummim were the 12 stones affixed to the breastpiece. That this was not the case is shown by the fact that, in the priestly inauguration ceremony, the completed breastpiece with the 12 stones sewn on it, was put upon Aaron, and then the Urim and Thummim were put in it. Also, a comparison of Exodus 28:9, 12, 30 refutes the theory that they consisted of the two onyx stones on the shoulder pieces of the high priest’s ephod. (Ex 28:9-14) They evidently were separate objects.

Their Use. It is notable that the Urim and the Thummim were to be over Aaron’s heart when he went “in before Jehovah,” doubtless referring to Aaron’s standing in the Holy before the curtain to the Most Holy compartment when inquiring of Jehovah. Their location, “over Aaron’s heart,” would appear to indicate that the Urim and the Thummim were placed in the fold, or pouch, formed by the doubled construction of the breastpiece. They were for “the judgments of the sons of Israel” and were used when a question of importance to the national leaders and consequently to the nation itself needed an answer from Jehovah. Jehovah, Israel’s Lawgiver, would give an answer to the high priest as to the right course to pursue on any matter.—Ex 28:30.

David called upon Abiathar to employ the Urim and the Thummim when Abiathar, after escaping the slaughter of the priests of Nob in which his father died, came to David with the ephod. Apparently this was the ephod of the high priest.—1Sa 22:19, 20; 23:6-15.

May Have Been Lots. From the instances recorded in the Scriptures in which Jehovah was consulted by Urim and Thummim, it appears that the question was so framed that a “yes” or “no” answer, or at least a very brief and direct reply, could be given. In one instance (1Sa 28:6) the Urim is mentioned alone, evidently with the Thummim also understood to be included.

A number of Bible commentators believe that the Urim and the Thummim were lots. They are called “the sacred lots” in James Moffatt’s translation of Exodus 28:30. Some suppose that they consisted of three pieces, one inscribed with the word “yes,” one with “no,” and the other blank. These would be drawn, giving the answer to the question propounded, unless the blank piece was drawn, in which case no answer was forthcoming. Others think that they may have been two flat stones, white on one side and black on the other. When thrown down, two white sides up would mean “yes,” two black sides “no,” and a black and a white would mean no answer. On one occasion, when Saul had inquired through the priest as to whether to resume an attack on the Philistines, he received no answer. Feeling that someone among his men had sinned, he petitioned: “O God of Israel, do give Thummim!” Saul and Jonathan were taken from among those present; after that, lots were cast to decide between the two. In this account the appeal, “Do give Thummim,” seems to be separate from the lot casting, though it may give indication that there was some connection between the two.—1Sa 14:36-42.

Served to Link Kingdom With Priesthood. The Aaronic priesthood is referred to at Deuteronomy 33:8-10, which says: “Your Thummim and your Urim belong to the man loyal to you.” The reference to these as belonging “to the man loyal to you [Jehovah]” perhaps alludes to the loyalty of the tribe of Levi (from which the Aaronic priesthood came) that was demonstrated in connection with the incident of the golden calf.—Ex 32:25-29.

Jehovah wisely provided the Urim and the Thummim and placed them in the hands of the high priest. This made the king dependent to a great extent on the priesthood, avoiding the concentration of too much power in the hands of the king. It brought about the necessity of cooperation between the kingship and the priesthood. (Nu 27:18-21) Jehovah made known his will to Israel by his written Word, also by prophets and by dreams. But it seems that prophets and dreams were used for special occasions, whereas the high priest with the Urim and the Thummim was always present with the people.

Use Ceased in 607 B.C.E. According to Jewish tradition, use of the Urim and the Thummim ceased when Jerusalem was desolated and her temple destroyed in 607 B.C.E. by the Babylonian armies under King Nebuchadnezzar. (Babylonian Talmud, Sotah 48b) This view is supported by what we read regarding these objects in the books of Ezra and Nehemiah. There, certain men who were claimants to priestly descent, but who could not find their names in the public register, were told that they could not eat from the most holy things provided for the priesthood until a priest stood up with Urim and Thummim. But there is no record of their use at that time, and thereafter the Bible

Take care,
Hope12 Great post Stony