[KBC]

Although the establishment has closed the other thread,Of which I think was out of line, but that's bureaucracy at its best.

Why is the idea of another belief so alien for one religion to another, or for the Non-believer?Again I ask,Who has the right to say, unequivocally,they are right?

Yes mountain_man,I will continue to answer a question with other questions, The real idea is to open up communication between people,If that isn't right for you,sorry 'bout your bad luck,Please don't judge me for my views, your just solidifying my UN-belief and disdain for a religion and its followers!

As to the "scientific evidence", what can we prove about god?

I have been a person questioning this since Sunday school, some 35 years ago.

Please, enlighten me as to the FACTS,that there is a god, Not a feeling, or a sense of security, not a written word,or some other human interpretation of a concept.

I am NOT going to play 'Spear the Atheist' with those of you that want to get belligerent because I don't share your views,I want to have discussion,Adult,siren,mature,and hopefully enlightening for all of us.

Thank you,

Ken

[N0help4u]

I hear non believers say those things all the time just the way you posted it.
I think it is basically a defense mechanism to justify where they are at.
Like if they say well Christians are hypocrites it justifies their decision to not want God.
Saying that a preacher/Christian committed adultery is pointing the finger to comfort them in their own wrongs because they can say you guys are no better so why should I?
Then they say 'jamming it down their throats' when you simply say have you ever considered
God? Another defense mechanism to say they don't want to hear it. Separation of Church and state, perverted sexual art and pro abortion stuff seems to me more like having it jammed down your throats than a simple statement about Christianity but that is acceptable.

[MoonlitWaves]

As to the "scientific evidence", what can we prove about god?

I have been a person questioning this since Sunday school, some 35 years ago.

Please, enlighten me as to the FACTS,that there is a god, Not a feeling, or a sense of security, not a written word,or some other human interpretation of a concept.


Thank you,

Ken

There is no undeniable evidence/proof that God exists. At least not the kind that can not be refuted, the kind that will prove to all, without doubt, of His existence. What do I mean by that? Well I know without doubt and undeniably that God does exist, but I can't undeniably prove it to you or anyone else. Because I believe in God, I believe that all will see the truth with either your death, or the second coming. Until then there will never be any undeniable evidence to God's existence. The reason being is because God gives us free will to believe. He wants us to choose Him. If He is undeniably real to everyone then that choice is gone. We are instead in a sense, as mountainman put it, robots.

::Edit:: Not changing, but adding to my post.

When Christians say the evidence is in how and what they feel, their sense of security, the written Word, and other human interpretation, it is not undeniable proof, but it is our undeniable evidence. We know this may not be good enough for you, but we say it because we know that everyone can have it, everyone can know without a doubt and undeniably if only they would allow it.

[savedsinner7]

Matthew 11:27
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

Psalm 19:1
[ For the choir director: A psalm of David. ] The heavens proclaim the glory of God.The skies display his craftsmanship.

Matthew 11:25
[ Jesus’ Prayer of Thanksgiving ] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.


God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

Although the establishment has closed the other thread,Of which I think was out of line, but thats bureaucracy at its best.

Why is the idea of another belief so alien for one religion to another, or for the Non-believer?Again I ask,Who has the right to say, unequivocally,they are right?

Yes mountain_man,I will continue to answer a question with other questions, The real idea is to open up communication between people,If that isn't right for you,sorry 'bout your bad luck,Please don't judge me for my views, your just solidifying my UN-belief and disdain for a religion and its followers!

As to the "scientific evidence", what can we prove about god?

I have been a person questioning this since Sunday school, some 35 years ago.

Please, enlighten me as to the FACTS,that there is a god, Not a feeling, or a sense of security, not a written word,or some other human interpretation of a concept.

I am NOT going to play 'Spear the Atheist' with those of you that want to get belligerent because I don't share your views,I want to have discussion,Adult,siren,mature,and hopefully enlightening for all of us.

Thank you,

Ken

[MoonlitWaves]

God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

Exactly. Not the exact words, I would have to look it up, but the Bible states that if we seek Him with all of our heart we will find Him. This is the only way because there is no undeniable evidence that everyone can know without a doubt. But for those of us who did/do seek Him with all of our heart have undeniably found Him.

[KBC]

God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

I am not seeking to 'Prove anyone wrong',I am seeking enlightenment as to why. How can this be looked at from my perspective?

How can we 'Prove him right'?

Obviously it isn't an option.

Religions of all the ages are based on what?Mans basic need for answers to the unknown and a need to feel that there is something more than man to explain the 'larger picture'

How long ago did man question the actions of the burning sun,claim it to be an act of a loving god which gave us life,now we KNOW for a fact, the reasons behind the sun's chemical and nuclear reactions.

Or the volcano worshipers who believed Krakatoa was an angry god,and the earthquakes rumblings which were interpreted as a demon chained to the underworld,rattling his chains.

What will man figure out in the future about who and what we are,something which religion won't see for the simple idea that it doesn't want to see, because it might cast a shadow of doubt on its validity?



Matthew 11:25
[ Jesus' Prayer of Thanksgiving ] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.

Hiding what?and how does the non believer find it if they can't see it?

Matthew 11:27
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

In My ideology, this is convenient at best,when a divine being chooses to reveal himself to anyone it is an act of this higher beings will,this is some of the very preachings that make it unbelievable.(to me)

Here is why.

It casts the higher being in an indisputable light,which has no answer,if this being is almighty,why does it need to hide itself behind a veil of mystery,why not expose itself? To say it is not seeking glory? Or acknowledgment?

To what end?If it created this universe,gave us free will, brains to question and understand ,where are the answers to come from? A disputable book,or teachings passed down from generation to generation?Isn't this the same concept that the Ancient Egyptians stated about their gods? Or the Norse? How does Christianity differ from their beliefs?Because it is more modern?Worldwide?

Science has proven,without doubt, that it can reproduce the amino acids necessary for the start of life,and with little interpretation,it can be argued in both lights,creationism and evolutionism.

Did god make it possible to change the acids and join them to proteins,which were foreign to ancient earth,or did another outside influence make it possible, like a meteor bringing a new chemical into the mixture,or another advanced being capable of doing this and leaving this planet to evolve on its own?This is the area questioned and theorized by scientific minds,and dismissed by divine thinkers as creation. Who is right?

I hope for all our sakes this can be a calm discussion,

Ken

[mountain_man]

KBC, it is very clever of you not to directly answer questions but regarding the RED you gave me... where was I being hypocritical and judging? Please point this out to me.

[KBC]

KBC, it is very clever of you not to directly answer questions but regarding the RED you gave me...where was I being hypocritical and judging? Please point this out to me.

Clever? I am who I am. Are you judging again?

As to the red, I was just doing what a good Christian does,right? An eye for an eye, a red for a red?;)

Edit:You by your own admission stated that your all hypocrites,I was just agreeing and returning the only real red I have ever received (except for the first,which by the way, was from a self proclaimed 'Crishtian' who chose to judge my response smiler to you)HMMMMM

[mountain_man]

Clever? I am who I am. are you judging again?

As to the red, I was just doing what a good Christian does,right? an eye for an eye, a red for a red?;)

edit:You by your own admission stated that your all hypocrites,I was just agreeing and returning the only real red I have ever received (except for the first,which by the way, was from a self proclaimed 'Crishtian' who chose to judge my response smiler to you)HMMMMM

I didn't judge your response; it was fact you answered a question with a question and it wasn't helpful.

So you just got back at me for giving you a RED! I didn't know that it meant so much to you.

[KBC]

I didn't judge your response; it was fact you answered a question with a question and it wasn't helpful.

So you just got back at me for giving you a RED! I didn't know that it meant so much to you.

You were the only one who felt it wasn't helpful,did you read it and answer my question, or judge it not helpful?:eek:

[mountain_man]

you were the only one who felt it wasn't helpful,did you read it and answer my question, or judge it not helpful?:eek:

Sorry I am not going to get into this with you.

[MoonlitWaves]

God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

I am not seeking to 'Prove anyone wrong',I am seeking enlightenment as to why. How can this be looked at from my perspective?

How can we 'Prove him right'?

Obviously it isn't an option.

Religions of all the ages are based on what?Mans basic need for answers to the unknown and a need to feel that there is something more than man to explain the 'larger picture'

How long ago did man question the actions of the burning sun,claim it to be an act of a loving god which gave us life,now we KNOW for a fact, the reasons behind the sun's chemical and nuclear reactions.

Or the volcano worshipers who believed Krakatoa was an angry god,and the earthquakes rumblings which were interpreted as a demon chained to the underworld,rattling his chains.

What will man figure out in the future about who and what we are,something which religion won't see for the simple idea that it doesn't want to see, because it might cast a shadow of doubt on its validity?



Matthew 11:25
[ Jesus’ Prayer of Thanksgiving ] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.

Hiding what?and how does the non believer find it if they can't see it?

Matthew 11:27
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

In My ideology, this is convenient at best,when a divine being chooses to reveal himself to anyone it is an act of this higher beings will,this is some of the very preachings that make it unbelievable.(to me)

Here is why.

It casts the higher being in an indisputable light,which has no answer,if this being is almighty,why does it need to hide itself behind a veil of mystery,why not expose itself? To say it is not seeking glory? Or acknowledgment?

To what end?If it created this universe,gave us free will, brains to question and understand ,where are the answers to come from? A disputable book,or teachings passed down from generation to generation?Isn't this the same concept that the Ancient Egyptians stated about their gods?,Or the Norse? How does Christianity differ from their beliefs?Because it is more modern?Worldwide?

Science has proven,without doubt, that it can reproduce the amino acids necessary for the start of life,and with little interpretation,it can be argued in both lights,creationism and evolutionism.

Did god make it possible to change the acids and join them to proteins,which were foreign to ancient earth,or did another outside influence make it possible, like a meteor bringing a new chemical into the mixture,or another advanced being capable of doing this and leaving this planet to evolve on its own?This is the area questioned and theorized by scientific minds,and dismissed by divine thinkers as creation. Who is right??

I hope for all our sakes this can be a calm discussion,

Ken

God is spiritual, therefore we must seek Him spiritually in order to find Him, in order for Him to reveal Himself to us.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned."

Deuteronomy 4:29 "But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul."

Jeremiah 29:13 "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."

Amos 5:4 "For thus saith the Lord unto the house of Isreal, seek ye me, and ye shall live."

Yes, Jesus said that He will reaveal to whomever He chooses, but with the above verses He tells us who He will choose to reveal Himself to. Those who seek Him with all their heart and soul.
This is not Biblical, it is simply my thoughts. Why should God reveal His glory, greatness and goodness to those who care nothing for it? To those who do not want it? Or to those who want revealation only for proof. When we seek God it is not to prove anything. We seek because we want to know Him, be a part of Him, live for eternity with Him.

Why are some things withheld?

John 16:12 "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now."
He will reveal anything you are capable of understanding. Knowing everything about an infinite God is not possible with a finite mind.
He gives us what we need to know. How to live for eternity with Him (receive salvation). How we should live our lives and what we should be doing with our lives.

Here is just another additional verse on John's thoughts.

John 21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, that which if they should be written everyone, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written."

[KBC]

Thank you all for your responses,

I am done explaining my points and feel better for it.

May you all be as content as I am in my spirituality!

Ken

[savedsinner7]

We have much evidence as to the Presence of God.

Psalm 40
To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David.
1 I waited patiently for the LORD;
And He inclined to me,
And heard my cry.
2 He also brought me up out of a horrible pit,
Out of the miry clay,
And set my feet upon a rock,
And established my steps.
3 He has put a new song in my mouth—
Praise to our God;
Many will see it and fear,
And will trust in the LORD.

4 Blessed is that man who makes the LORD his trust,
And does not respect the proud, nor such as turn aside to lies.
5 Many, O LORD my God, are Your wonderful works
Which You have done;
And Your thoughts toward us
Cannot be recounted to You in order;
If I would declare and speak of them,
They are more than can be numbered.

6 Sacrifice and offering You did not desire;
My ears You have opened.
Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.
7 Then I said, “Behold, I come;
In the scroll of the book it is written of me.
8 I delight to do Your will, O my God,
And Your law is within my heart.”

9 I have proclaimed the good news of righteousness
In the great assembly;
Indeed, I do not restrain my lips,
O LORD, You Yourself know.
10 I have not hidden Your righteousness within my heart;
I have declared Your faithfulness and Your salvation;
I have not concealed Your lovingkindness and Your truth
From the great assembly.

11 Do not withhold Your tender mercies from me, O LORD;
Let Your lovingkindness and Your truth continually preserve me.
12 For innumerable evils have surrounded me;
My iniquities have overtaken me, so that I am not able to look up;
They are more than the hairs of my head;
Therefore my heart fails me.

13 Be pleased, O LORD, to deliver me;
O LORD, make haste to help me!
14 Let them be ashamed and brought to mutual confusion
Who seek to destroy my life;
Let them be driven backward and brought to dishonor
Who wish me evil.
15 Let them be confounded because of their shame,
Who say to me, “Aha, aha!”

16 Let all those who seek You rejoice and be glad in You;
Let such as love Your salvation say continually,
“The LORD be magnified!”
17 But I am poor and needy;
Yet the LORD thinks upon me.
You are my help and my deliverer;
Do not delay, O my God.

How can we 'Prove him right'? Ken

[inthebox]

;)

God will not allow those who are seeking to "prove Him wrong" to find Him. He is found by those who are seeking to know Him.

I am not seeking to 'Prove anyone wrong',I am seeking enlightenment as to why. How can this be looked at from my perspective?

How can we 'Prove him right'?

Obviously it isn't an option.

Religions of all the ages are based on what?Mans basic need for answers to the unknown and a need to feel that there is something more than man to explain the 'larger picture'

How long ago did man question the actions of the burning sun,claim it to be an act of a loving god which gave us life,now we KNOW for a fact, the reasons behind the sun's chemical and nuclear reactions.

Or the volcano worshipers who believed Krakatoa was an angry god,and the earthquakes rumblings which were interpreted as a demon chained to the underworld,rattling his chains.

What will man figure out in the future about who and what we are,something which religion won't see for the simple idea that it doesn't want to see, because it might cast a shadow of doubt on its validity?



Matthew 11:25
[ Jesus’ Prayer of Thanksgiving ] At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.

Hiding what?and how does the non believer find it if they can't see it?

Matthew 11:27
“My Father has entrusted everything to me. No one truly knows the Son except the Father, and no one truly knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.”

In My ideology, this is convenient at best,when a divine being chooses to reveal himself to anyone it is an act of this higher beings will,this is some of the very preachings that make it unbelievable.(to me)

Here is why.

It casts the higher being in an indisputable light,which has no answer,if this being is almighty,why does it need to hide itself behind a veil of mystery,why not expose itself? To say it is not seeking glory? Or acknowledgment?

To what end?If it created this universe,gave us free will, brains to question and understand ,where are the answers to come from? A disputable book,or teachings passed down from generation to generation?Isn't this the same concept that the Ancient Egyptians stated about their gods?,Or the Norse? How does Christianity differ from their beliefs?Because it is more modern?Worldwide?

Science has proven,without doubt, that it can reproduce the amino acids necessary for the start of life,and with little interpretation,it can be argued in both lights,creationism and evolutionism.

Did god make it possible to change the acids and join them to proteins,which were foreign to ancient earth,or did another outside influence make it possible, like a meteor bringing a new chemical into the mixture,or another advanced being capable of doing this and leaving this planet to evolve on its own?This is the area questioned and theorized by scientific minds,and dismissed by divine thinkers as creation. Who is right??

I hope for all our sakes this can be a calm discussion,

Ken

Hebrews 11:
1Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.


In regard to reproducing amino acids, besides a link, some questions.

1] you are saying that scientists are doing this. These scientists are using their intelligence to do this. Amino acids did not randomly appera on a bench by pure chance. Did it?

2] These scientists have to set the environment to make the reproduction of amino acids possible. A willful act, no pure chance?

3] Amino acids, as far as I know, do not self reproduce. Dna is the basis of directing the cell and involved in transmission to succeeding generations. That being the case, reproducing aminoacids by intelligent scientists willfully setting the right preconditions to make this possible does not prove anything about the origin of life.

Biology is my background. I acknowledge mankinds achievements, but I still cannot 'scientifically' prove how it all began. I choose to believe in God the creator.
And, I think that is more logical then believing in pure random chance. I think panspermia as a theory is even less 'provable' than evolution or God.

I think it is also a legitimate choice for others to wait until science advances to shed more information on this question.


KBC:


But Jesus did not come for scientists ;) He came for sinners. To let them know that there is forgiveness, redemption, salvation, and love. It is in the Bible. I am one of those sinners.


I think a 'child' [ dependent by definition ] can grasp this more than the learned and educated, because the latter is, perhaps, too self confident that they will eventually find out the facts and answers on their own.





Grace and Peace