[ScottGem]

ScottGem's comments are normal, and he makes some good points, but still, the problem for the Majority still exists.
The Basic Fundament Right of Christians, guaranteed by our fore-fathers, is being taken away by the ACLU and other minority organizations. This is a fact!
And, it's what this debate is.

First, please define what you mean by my comments being "normal".

Second, There is no such thing as a "basic right of Christians" guaranteed by our forefathers or anyone else. Please provide some proof of that or retract it. What there is is a basic right of all americans to worship as they please. That's what religious freedom means. To say any one group has these rights is bigoted, intolerant and insensitive.

As for the ACLU or anyone taking away these rights, I again ask you to prove it. In my experience the ACLU is not trying to take anyone rights away, they are all about preserving the rights guaranteed by our constitution. Please don't state something as fact unless you can provide proof of the facts.

Scott<>

[fredg]

Hi,
I am so sorry to read about your dis-belief, and non-practice of religion, ScottGem. You have some very good qualities you allude to, for which really make you stand out as a caring person for your daughter.
Peace of mind, good feelings about yourself and others, come from believing in God. Some, like you, find these same feelings about themselves from other sources or ideas.
Debate is endless over Religion and Politics, and many things come out in them.
I truly hope you find faith eventually, in some form or other.

[ScottGem]

Hi,
I am so sorry to read about your dis-belief, and non-practice of religion, ScottGem. You have some very good qualities you allude to, for which really make you stand out as a caring person for your daughter.
Peace of mind, good feelings about yourself and others, come from believing in God. Some, like you, find these same feelings about themselves from other sources or ideas.
Debate is endless over Religion and Politics, and many things come out in them.
I truly hope you find faith eventually, in some form or other.

Fred,
This is definitely an improvement over some of the other notes of intolerance you have posted.

I have seen many people, especially clergy, say that you find God in your heart and within yourself. If that is true, and I believe it is, then organized religion is just a way for people to find what is in themselves. For my part feel I have already found it. One does not need to practice organized religion (and notice the qualification about ORGANIZED) to follow the judeo-christian ethic that is the basis of the major religions. As long as I practice those ethics, then it should not matter that I practice the rites, rituals and trappings of organized religion.

As you say, some people find these things through a belief in God, others through different sources. To me it matters not how they find them, but that they DO find them. I judge people by how they act and behave, NOT by how they worship.

While I appreciate the sincerity in your regret about my non practice of religion, you have no need to hope that I find faith. Because I have found my own form of it. My faith is in the goodness of man. My faith is in man's ability to exercise their free will to perform acts of kindness, of heroism, of altruism, to do the right thing by their fellow man. That is what I "worship".

Scott<>

[ScottGem]

This is much better then your other notes of intolerance.

[fredg]

Hi,
It is the duty of every Christian to try leading others into believing in, and accepting God. That is why I truly hope you find belief and can come to prayer, attending some religious group of your choice.
I do agree with you on "not judging" anyone, in regards to if they practice any religious faith, say in church, etc, or not.
If anyone is interested, a bill is before Congress in regards to Workplace Practices in Religious matters, hopefully allowing religious employees time off for their religious beliefs, etc. here is a link.

http://www.stonescryout.org/archives...lation_to.html

Of course, the first rejections were from the ACLU and homosexual groups!
This was to be expected.
"Christians' Rights" maybe should have been worded as "Religious Rights", which were the reasons for founding the New World.
Religious Rights are being taken away; no question about that, whether one views it a "change for the better", or whatever.

[cralmic]

Hello again,

Scott, you are correct in some of your statements... most people see the differences with the holidays etc. Keeping them separate and in perspective is impoortant. Unfortunately not all people can do this. I am raising my children to believe in god, fear the crap out of him... but from a respect point of view. In a nut shell, kids today and even young adults are being misled. I am a Lutheran and believe in god. I am also open mided enough to believe that if people have "A" faith that they believe in and (here's the important part) PRACTICE it then their choice is exactly that... their choice.

I have been in sales most of my life and it is a good profession, yet like and position if abused can hurt people. People believe in you and what you say. When speaking to masses in regards to a holiday and or for any purpose; whether it be for a product, religion, mental well being or whatever reason you have to be careful. My point is by commercializing the crap out of holidays and creating a new reason for a card manufacturer to design a new card and place another day on the calendar to celebrate we set OURSELVES up for trouble. We start losing sight of WHY we are doing what we are doing and the true meanings of the holidays. Sometimes I think we just don't like being told what we have to do. Maybe it's a childhood issue? Whatever. Rebellion at it's best?

Again... my point here is celebrate the holidays for what they are and what they truly mean. I do not generally share intimate parts of my life with people that I do not know, but I am teaching my kids some life long values to live by. We started a X-Mas practice a few years back where my wife and I have certain toys or things we want our kids to have. We make certain they receive these gifts. We also have selected presents, which are still very nice and they are allowed to open the night before X-Mas. Before the boys open these gifts they are to select one, which we give to someone less fortunate.
I also have taken them into neighborhoods where people are not as fortunate. We have donated certain belongings and furniture etc. I always tel them not to stare and to be polite and respect other people because we as a society need more of this. We always talk about what we saw while making donations so my boys know "things in life" do not just appear. Young adults/kids todau see what Mom and Dad have and think they should have it tomorrow. My wife and I started the same way as most people... we did not have two nickles to rub between us. We both worked until we started having kids then we both agreed for her to be a stay at home Mom. It was a difficult decision, but one well worth it.

I have done very well for myself and am self made, but grounded. I have a nice home and have (like many people) worked my butt off. My Mom raised myself and my 3 siblings on 8$ an hour so I will never forget those days. Why will I never forget? Because we were poor and I did not know it. I remember drinking milk because it was left out on the counter and we could not afford to throw it away. Mainly I remember the love we had and still have.

My Mom re-married and I could not have asked for a better step-dad. He has truly been awesome and an inspiration in my life. One of the threads I read was about being molested/raped... this is very difficult. I too have seen too much of this. I had a priest try to molest my younger brother and I. My wife had been molested by her father. A close friend of mine had been molested by her father. My biological father abused us kids. A girlfriend I had in college was abused by her father by grabbing her fingers with a pair of pliers and squeezing. I also have 3 cousins which are gay.

Folks, these are challenging times no matter who you are. To the lady that had been raped... my heart goes out to you. Please find a way to get through it. I had issues with the church because of my encounters, but ultimatley I had to come to grips with it and move on. Shawshank Redemption movie... "get busy living or get busy dying". Life is too short to hold baggage, I am not saying it is easy. Hold strong, you sound like a wonderful lady. Get your daughter, research several churches, find the right one and GO.

I have gotten way off base, but the bottom line is enjoy the holidays for what they are and not for what we believe they are for. Love your kids, family etc... a lot!

Tell someone today that you love them.
Tell someone today that you appreciate them.
Tell someone today that you believe in them.
Tell someone today that they inspire you.
Tell someone today that you're having a great day when you're not.

Sometime's we start believing in things so much that we truly believe it. Moral: Don't start believing in your own bull****. Don't manifest it change It! Stop feeding what it is you are feeding. Redirect your energy. You and the people around you will be happier for it.

[Chery]

Your last inspiring words on how to live life are very true to how I feel:

Tell someone today that you love them.
Tell someone today that you appreciate them.
Tell someone today that you believe in them.
Tell someone today that they inspire you.
Tell someone today that you're having a great day when you're not.

We should all be positive, and be kind and complimenting, especially to those you love.
I've gotten over that rape as it happened over 40 years ago, and I help others with their problems now to include alcohol and drug abuse as well - and they also have underlying factors. Every action has a reaction, even if it's years later, so yes - the problems should be worked on and we should go on with our lives. It's the whole world which needs to act like a family at present and the disputes and wars stopped, but 'the powers that be' will not do so, it's not financially feasible.

Welcome to the forum, and I for one hope you stay on - it's a mixed 'family' with good and bad 'kids', but nonetheless one of the best forums.

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_11.gif

[cralmic]

It's the whole world which needs to act like a family at present and the disputes and wars stopped, but 'the powers that be' will not do so, it's not financially feasible.

Man is this another issue. There is so much useless hatred. This is not something you control on a global basis, but has to start with how each of us address and treats each other, which in turn will be global. Problem is in parts of the world, they see violence as a way of life. We go to a job every day and they for centuries have fought each other. A cycle not quickly changed. Barbaric to say the least, but it is their way of life and passed down through generations. The Iraq thing is a mess. I believe in the support, weapons of mass Destruction... I believe at one time there was and maybe still is just hid well or moved to adjacent country. Whatever. It's sad... these people need to have a different view of the world and see how it should be. I just wish we would stop being the world's police. We help most everybody, at times when they don't need or want it. We are also kicked all of the time and our military folks are awesome and need supported. Period. For the world to see the impact we make, sometimes I think we should just bring everyone home and stop paying/funding all of the coutries we support in the world. Maybe, just maybe we would be respected for what we do. American's pay so much for taxes and I never complain about it. EXCEPT when someone is complaining about the USA with a mouth full of food provided by the USA. I am a third generation German to the US and my ancestors loved the US when they initially came here. I have heard stories of their lives and how they appreciated coming to the states. Anyone is welcome here as long as they respect our history our beliefs and understand they are also free to vote and exercise their beliefs.

[fredg]

Hey, SSchultz0956,
Joy to the World, Merry Christmas, and Happy Hanuka!
Today, Walmart and Target announced a reversal of their decision not to display signs of "Christmas" in their stores.
Previously, Walmart made the decision not to display signs with the words "Merry Christmas" or "Christmas" in their stores. Soon after, Catholics and other groups who believe in Christ announced they would boycott Walmart for the remainder of the year. Walmart didn't want to offend anyone with "Christmas" signs. Well, guess what? They did offend those who believe in Christ and action was taken.
Today, both stores will display the signs as usual during this season.
Christmas is a celebration of Christ. Without Christ, there is no Christmas.
Stand back, ACLU, be prepared for some tough fights ahead!
It's just beginning.

[ScottGem]

Not much more to be said!

[ScottGem]

Hi,
It is the duty of every Christian to try leading others into believing in, and accepting God. That is why I truly hope you find belief and can come to prayer, attending some religious group of your choice.
I do agree with you on "not judging" anyone, in regards to if they practice any religious faith, say in church, etc, or not.
If anyone is interested, a bill is before Congress in regards to Workplace Practices in Religious matters, hopefully allowing religious employees time off for their religious beliefs, etc., here is a link.

http://www.stonescryout.org/archives...lation_to.html

Of course, the first rejections were from the ACLU and homosexual groups!
This was to be expected.
"Christians' Rights" maybe should have been worded as "Religious Rights", which were the reasons for founding the New World.
Religious Rights are being taken away; no question about that, whether one views it a "change for the better", or whatever.

I do appreciate that you changed christian Rights to Religious Rights. There is NO maybe about it. However, one of the paradoxes of the colonization of the Americas is that while several groups did come here for relgious freedom, they did not want to extend that freedom to others. The Puritans in particular were very intolerant of other relegions. Its one of the reasons that the Founding Fathers were so adamant about separation of Church and State.

I know there is biblical basis for your statement "It is the duty of every Christian to try leading others into believing in, and accepting God." However, I do not believe that every Christian sect follows that particular teaching. And frankly, I find it extremely offensive. I do not believe that anyone has the right to even suggest that my feelings about God and religion are such that I need to be saved, converted or whatever. I would NEVER presume to tell anyone (not even my own daughter as I indicated previously) how they should feel about this. A great deal of harm has been done in the name of this particular teaching (i.e. the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition).

When I was growing up I attended temple at the Brotherhood Synagogue in Greenwich Village (NYC). This synagogue shared the facility with a church (Episcopal as I recall, but I may be wrong on that). Sabbath services were performed on Saturdays and Church services on Sundays. There was true brotherhood and tolerance between the two congregations who often shared other events. That's the way things should be. The church where my daughter goes has put no pressure on her to convert. All they have done is teach their way so she can make her own decisions.

As for that bill that you cited. The blame for that goes to the Supreme Court. I agree that Title VII sufficiently covers that. The Supreme Court weakened it. I recall a recent case where a Sikh sued and won under Title VII for the right to wear a turban on the job. So I think that Title VII already provides the protections this law purports to.

As for the ACLU, I think their objections have merit. There have been plenty of times that well meaning laws have been corrupted for evil purposes. And I can where this law has that potential. I think the ACLU action is not against the bill, but a call to tighten it up to prevent the possibility of abuse. I don't say the ACLU never goes overboard, but I do so that the ACLU ONLY concern is preserving civil liberties.

Finally, as for the Walmart and Target announcements I cheer them. I think our litigious society has caused people to bend over backwards not to offend. And that's what prompted their initial action. But, happily, sanity seems to have taken over there.

Scott<>

[NeedKarma]

Everyone will begin to see some changes made in laws, upholding Christians' rights, because it's already started.

Will the same changes in laws uphold the rights of other religions?

Peace of mind, good feelings about yourself and others, come from believing in God.

That is a load of crap. Have you never met anyone who has peace of mind, good feelings about themselves and others, and did not believe in God? I've met plenty. I have also met people who believe in God who treat others like sh*t and feel so bad about themselves that they are alcoholics and commit adultery.

[Fr_Chuck]

The ACLU is most likely the one most single biggest threat to American Freedom and the true republic that America is.

The desire that what is best for the majority of people even if it is not agreed on by a minority of speical interest groups is first very unamerican and next extremely dangerous, since it allows for the decay of society that we have seen very largely over the past years.

They attempts are not as much to actually prove legal principles, but to sue even when they know similar cases have been lost since the mere threat of law suit offen causes groups to give in for fear of large law suits.
Next if the groups don't give in, they will next be labeled as some form of bigoted group.

They care little for the real truths of the Constitution and the truth of its base on religion in the preamble.

No terrorist group coming from the middle east can do as much damage to our real American freedoms as this group can by filing law suit after law suit to try to use this fear to control american business and society. There idea of freedom will be where christians will have no freedom to do any religious activity in public ever.

[psi42]

My thoughts exactly.

[psi42]

Over the past 30 years, or even more, the ACLU, and some other minorities, have fought to stop all religious activities of Christians; and to change the basic purpose of why America was originally founded. Any changes as to why this country was founded, will not stand.

America was never a "Christian nation," and it never will be. You need to review your history.

The words "liberal", "left", and "right" have become highly overused by the Media, and others, such as one answer here, to the point that Christian morals and values are on trial again, as they were over 2000 yrs ago.

Oh please. No one is trying to take away your freedom of worship. All we are trying to do is make sure that public education is not used to force Christianity upon others.

According to National Polls, the majority of Americans say they are Christians; but the ACLU and others have gained so much, that they now speak out against the majority.

Okay. For the last time: Democracy is not about the rule of the majority. That is "mob rule." Look it up. There's a big difference.

Prayers taken away from the public schools, and the Pledge of Allegiance taken away using the words "under God" are the latest examples of the ACLU and others, trying to destroy Christianity. The next step will try to completely do away with the Pledge of Allegiance.

We're not trying to destroy Christianity. We're trying to destroy Theocracy.

In some time to come, Christians will begin voting in hugh numbers, changing laws, changing Senators and Representatives, who vote against them. The time is coming that the "laws", imposed by a minority of non-christians, will be changed.

Excellent! We'll form a great sister country to Iran.


On a side note, I am not a Christian (I used to be), but I do celebrate Christmas and Easter as secular holidays.

You'll notice there hasn't been any (serious) effort to prevent the _students_ from wearing religious objects to school. You're blowing this issue way out of proportion. Calm down. We athiests are generally happy if we are left alone.

psi42

[fredg]

Very, Very, well said.

[fredg]

Hi,
Fr Chuck has really hit the nail on the head, so to speak.
I applaude you. Your comments are so very, very true.

[ScottGem]

This is just so much anti-liberal garabge.

[ScottGem]

The ACLU is most likely the one most single biggest threat to American Freedom and the true republic that America is.

The desire that what is best for the majority of people even if it is not agreed on by a minority of speical interest groups is first very unamerican and next extremely dangerous, since it allows for the decay of society that we have seen very largely over the past years.

The ACLU has often been over zealous in guarding civil liberties. But these statements are ridiculous and pure anti-liberal hogwash.

The contradiction of the second paragraph is amazing. The ACLU is trying to protect minority interests by not allowing any one group to have a preference.

Of course it doesn't surprise me that Fred would applaud this anti-liberal propaganda and misinformation as truth.

Scott<>

[fredg]

The ACLU has often been over zealous in guarding civil liberties. But these statements are ridiculous and pure anti-liberal hogwash.

The contradiction of the second paragraph is amazing. The ACLU is trying to protect minority interests by not allowing any one group to have a preference.

Of course it doesn't surprise me that Fred would applaud this anti-liberal propaganda and misinformation as truth.

Scott<>

Hi,
ScottGem's post doesn't surprise me either. So what else is new?
Arguments concering the ACLU are ongoing, and even the term "over zealous" is only partial truth; only scratches the surface.
It all remains to be seen, with changes taking place at a faster pace; seriously questioning many laws passed as a result of them.

If anyone is really interested about all this "hogwash", then here is a link, containing other links to laws, cases, court rulings, ACLU activities, and is good information on where they stand:

http://stoptheaclu.com/

This link does contain some "amazing" information about "preferences".