[jamlove]

Hello again!
I want to hook up an electric hot tub my friend just gave me. (how lucky am I? :))

I know that it needs a 50-amp GFCI-protected 240-V circuit. I have read info regarding to where to place the outdoor switch box, etc. But there's one thing I can't seem to find. Do I install a 50-amp breaker in my main panel, then run wires to ANOTHER 50-amp (GFCI) breaker switch in the spa box? Or, do I hard-wire the feed at the main panel? Or, do I install a 50-amp GFC breaker at the main panel, then run it to a simple 2-pole switch near the tub?

I saw just now that Lowe's sells a "Spa"-specific breaker box, that comes with a 50-amp GFC breaker, plus four additional slots for exterior lighting, or whatnot. I didn't buy it so I don't know what the instructions for connecting it may be. I also didn't get a chance to look at my friend's configuration (where the tub came from) when I picked it up, and he lives pretty far away.

I'm just wondering what the typical installation looks like. Seems to me like two breakers on the same line would be a bit of overkill.

One thing: If I'm supposed to hard-wire this box, like it's a sub-panel, then what do I do next year when I want to wire a sub-panel in my detached garage?

Thanks a bunch for the advice!

- j

[Roel Zylstra]

Man, sounds tough. I just installed a hot tub on a 120v line. I got the GFCI outlet at Home Depot. Since the tub is on the 120 line I can't run both the heater and high pumps at the same time, but that's OK with me. Either it's hot and I'm enjoying the water flow, or I'm out of it and it's using the heater and low pumps. It works for me. Are you sure you need a 240?

[tkrussell]

Forget the plan to hard wire at the panel, that cannot be done. A 50 amp rated breaker must be installed at the panel.

You can install the GFI breaker at the panel. The hot tub must have a service disconnect switch at the hot tub. Here you can install a 2 pole switch for the this purpose.

This switch must be rated at least 50 amps. If the hot tub is outdoors, then the switch must be mounted outdoors and must be outdoor rated, other wise known as rain tight. This switch must not be closer than 5 feet to the tub, and no more than 50 ft away, and within sight of the tub. This is only for the purpose of disconnecting power to the hot tub for servicing and maintenance.

Most electricians will install a standard 50 amp breaker at the panel, and then install the outdoor rated 50amp GFI breaker at the hot tub. You can compare prices, but I am sure you will find the cost of the standard breaker much less than the outdoor rated 50 amp switch.

Be sure the tub and all wiring is grounded properly. Your heiny will be sitting in the water surround by electricity.

[jessekimmerling]

The above respondent is mostly correct. I would add that the requirement for a service disconnect is for multi-family units according to the National Electric Code. Many local jurisdictions will require it for single family units as well, but not necessarily.

Be sure to match your breaker amperage to the hot tub. Most folks think hot tubs all require 50 amp breakers. Some hot tubs are 40 or 30 amp. You want the breaker size to match the hot tub. Bigger is not better, it's very dangerous. A 50 amp breaker will not trip in time to prevent damage and possibly a fire if a 40 amp hot tub with correctly sized wires is pulling more amps than it should.

That said, if you want to wire it on the cheap, and are not getting an inspection, you can slap a 2 pull 50 amp GFCI (if that's the size it takes) breaker in your main panel, run 6/3 romex inside and/or two #6 hots (one red one black for ease of identification) a #6 neutral, and a #8 ground inside rigid metallic or pvc conduit, or liquid tight conduit outside to the point where you enter the hot tub.

[stanfortyman]

The above respondent is mostly correct. I would add that the requirement for a service disconnect is for multi-family units according to the National Electric Code. Many local jurisdictions will require it for single family units as well, but not necessarily.

No. This is incorrect.
A service disconnect is ALWAYS required. It's the emergency shut off that is required for everything but a single family dwelling.
These are two very different things.

Bigger is not better, it's very dangerous. A 50 amp breaker will not trip in time to prevent damage and possibly a fire if a 40 amp hot tub with correctly sized wires is pulling more amps than it should.

This is also not true. I am not saying you should over or under size your breakers, but your reasoning is way off.
The breaker DOES NOT protect the equipment. It protects the circuit conductors.

Also, I am wondering if you can tell me how the tub can "pull more amps" than it is supposed to, barring a short circuit. I am VERY curious.



And do you realize this thread is over two and a half years old?

[Washington1]

The above respondent is mostly correct. I would add that the requirement for a service disconnect is for multi-family units according to the National Electric Code. Many local jurisdictions will require it for single family units as well, but not necessarily.

Be sure to match your breaker amperage to the hot tub. Most folks think hot tubs all require 50 amp breakers. Some hot tubs are 40 or 30 amp. You want the breaker size to match the hot tub. Bigger is not better, it's very dangerous. A 50 amp breaker will not trip in time to prevent damage and possibly a fire if a 40 amp hot tub with correctly sized wires is pulling more amps than it should.

That said, if you want to wire it on the cheap, and are not getting an inspection, you can slap a 2 pull 50 amp GFCI (if that's the size it takes) breaker in your main panel, run 6/3 romex inside and/or two #6 hots (one red one black for ease of identification) a #6 neutral, and a #8 ground inside rigid metalic or pvc conduit, or liquid tight conduit outside to the point where you enter the hot tub.

The above is 100% incorrect.

This tread is old as I am. :D

[haldier]

[/QUOTE]





This is also not true. I am not saying you should over or under size your breakers, but your reasoning is way off.
The breaker DOES NOT protect the equipment. It protects the circuit conductors.

Also, I am wondering if you can tell me how the tub can "pull more amps" than it is supposed to, barring a short circuit. I am VERY curious.



And do you realize this thread is over two and a half years old?[/QUOTE]

Actually you should ALWAYS set your breakers for the max amps your device is rated to pull because it is a safety trip. Regardless of weither it is to protect the equipment or the circuit conductors if (and it is possible if the water is dirty and the pump begins to labor and work harder than it is rated or designed to, or any number of other possibilities arise because after all if it could NEVER pull more than it is suppose to there would be no need for a circuit breaker in the first place would there... ) the pump begins to pull to many amps you can over heat it and begin an electrical fire either in the motor or in the wire that heats up as it pulls more than is rated.

And regardless wither the thread is two years old, people read these for SOUND advice and if you suggest that they can use a breaker that's (for example) 50 amps on a hot tub rated for 30 amps you are placing them in a position to get hurt or killed by giving them false information. You should always correct people if they are making boneheaded statements... like yours for example.

[stanfortyman]

Sorry Haldier, I'm going to have to disagree almost all of this post.

What experience do you base all this information on? Have to EVER seen a motor pull more amps because of dirty water?
Have you heard of thermally protected motors?
Have you EVER seen correctly sized motor circuit conductors cause a fire because a motor failed?
Are you even an electrician??

I think you'd better get your facts straight before you go calling folks a bonehead. ESPECIALLY in your first post, and especially when you are the one who is wrong.
You are making a very poor first impression that way.

Welcome to the site BTW.

[haldier]

Your joking right?? Never seen a motor labor from dirty water?? Never seen a motor over heat?? Never seen a motor pull to too many amps??

Possibility 1) Dirt or contaminant in the bearing of the motor thus causing drag causing the motor to pull more amps to turn the pump at the required speed.

Possibility 2) clog in pump line from dirt or contaminant causing the pump to labor and PULL MORE AMPS TO MOVE THE PUMP AT THE REQUIRED SPEED.

The Breaker should NEVER be larger than the appliance on the circuit because if it pulls to many amps it can possibly over heat the pump the terminals or the wire.

AGAIN if the pump could never pull to many amps why not wire it to the panel with no breaker at all... Breakers are a safety measure for all parts of the circuit, because while these things are not the standard they are certainly possible.

I am a licensed General Contractor in the state of Massachusetts. I have installed nearly 80 hot tubs and the Electrical Inspector ALWAYS checks to see that the breaker is the appropriate size.

[stanfortyman]

The Breaker should NEVER be larger than the appliance on the circuit because if it pulls to many amps it can possibly over heat the pump the terminals or the wire.

Oh really? Are you familiar with Art. 430 of the NEC?
Check out 430.33 and T430.52 if you would. It's OK, I'll wait.
YES, that says 250% of the full load current.

If we are talking about motors alone they follow special rules. A package spa will have it's own requirements, which we of course have to follow.

The circuit breaker protects the circuit conductors. In some cases they are allowed to protect motors as well, such as 430.33 referenced above.
If you feel differently that's fine, I'm OK with that.

May I suggest you brush up on NEC articles 210, 240 and 430.

[climb1028]

Oh really? Are you familiar with Art. 430 of the NEC?
Check out 430.33 and T430.52 if you would. It's OK, I'll wait.
YES, that says 250% of the full load current.

If we are talking about motors alone they follow special rules. A package spa will have it's own requirements, which we of course have to follow.

The circuit breaker protects the circuit conductors. In some cases they are allowed to protect motors as well, such as 430.33 referenced above.
If you feel differently that's fine, I'm OK with that.

May I suggest you brush up on NEC articles 210, 240 and 430.

WOW! SOMEBODY has an Ego problem... I would suggest not taking any advice from this guy just because he sounds like a huge... Is this forum a pissing contest for washed up out of work armchair electricians or for people to gather good advice from?
The information that Haldier and most of the people posting before Stanfortyman have posted is spot on, accurate and good common sense. I just checked the NEC AND called Portland City's electrical inspector who verified Haldier's statements as correct.

[stanfortyman]

WOW! You just checked the NEC did you? Tell me what you found please. I am very interested.
Sounds like you also need to brush up on NEC articles 210, 240 and 430.

First off, go back and look at the posts. The other guy is the one who came on here with his first post calling people a bonehead. IMO THAT is rather egotistical.

Also, you lame attempt at an insult by calling me a "washed up out of work armchair electrician" is laughable at best, but actually quite sad, since you have no clue what you are talking about.
Am I all all knowing. Absolutely not. Do I make mistakes? Absolutely yes.
Do I know what I am talking about with regard to electrical work and the NEC. I like to think so, and I get quite a bit of positive feedback. At the same time every now and then someone like you comes along and tries to piss in my cereal. Oh well.

May I suggest you please ignore any posts I make, as you are obviously convinced that my frank nature makes me incompetent.

Have a nice day. :)

[tkrussell]

Where is the implication that a breaker be larger than the tub rating?

That seems to be the disagreement.

I cannot find it.

[Washington1]

Where is the implication that a breaker be larger than the tub rating?

That seems to be the disagreement.

I cannot find it.

I can't find it either.

Is this forum a pissing contest for washed up out of work armchair electricians or for people to gather good advice from?

Nope. But it is a forum that has qualified electricians that work hard at helping DIY's, and some electricians for free.

[The_Inspector]

I am amazed by the arguments going back and forth by so called experts in the field. This is terribly unprofessional and seeing this, none of your advice should be taken. Nobody mentioned Art 680, I wonder why. Nobody mentioned an insulated ground for a new installation, I wonder why. Somebody said "if you don't get it inspected". Is that even an option legally? NO. I got quite a laugh out of this question and the chaos that followed. I remain amazed at it all.

[tkrussell]

Thanks for the critique, however, this is a thread that began back in Nov. 2005, and resurrected three more times over the years.


Appreciate the advice and input, but this thread is dead after almost five years, and is now closed.