[lobrobster]

Homegirl, being a father myself I'm very happy for you, your daughter. And your family! It's wonderful that you were able to deliver a healthy baby. There's nothing like a child in your life. I apologize in advance if this question seems too personal or tough. I realize it's not pleasant, but..

I can't help wondering why you choose to thank god for your one beautiful healthy daughter, while not blaming him for your multiple miscarriages. Wouldn't your other children have been just as beautiful? Why did "God" not give them the gift of life?

Like I said, it's a tough question and I hope I don't seem rude. I just don't understand why people praise god when something goes well, yet hold him blamess for their sufferings. Isn't it infinitely more likely that god had nothing to do with either event?

Also, what do you make of 7 month old babies who die from SIDS? What does god have against these innocent bundles of joy?

[lobrobster]

Other times when I pray it's like a really quiet voice directing me, telling me what to do,

So if god tells someone to fly a plane into a skyscraper, do you think they should do it? What if god told YOU to do that! Would you?

I understand these sound like sarcastic questions, but I really don't mean them to be. Once you realize that there really are people in this world who think god talks to them and tells them to do such vile acts, it's well... Sobering to say the least.

So is it safe to say (in your case), that you would obey god if he directed you in a peaceful way, but would reject him if he were to direct you to commit an act of violence?

[lobrobster]

That was nothing but God Almighty, the mighty healer

I am truly glad that your daughter is OK. But what about all the other parents who lost their child that same night and prayed just as fervently for their child as you did for yours? Would you have us believe that god loves your family more than their's? What about the kid who was choking on a magnet around the same time your daughter was ill? God just didn't like that kid?

[Homegirl 50]

I am truly glad that your daughter is ok. But what about all the other parents who lost their child that same night and prayed just as fervently for their child as you did for yours? Would you have us believe that god loves your family more than their's? What about the kid who was choking on a magnet around the same time your daughter was ill? God just didn't like that kid?

No, God loves every child. He loves those babies I lost. When I lost my babies I'm sure there were other expectant moms praying that her child would be delivered and they were.
I don't understand why some prayers are answered and some are seemingly not, I do know that when we pray "They will be done" we are also saying, that "if you don't answer my prayer according to what I want, give me grace and mercy"

[Homegirl 50]

Homegirl, being a father myself I'm very happy for you, your daughter. and your family! It's wonderful that you were able to deliver a healthy baby. There's nothing like a child in your life. I apologize in advance if this question seems too personal or tough. I realize it's not pleasant, but..

I can't help wondering why you choose to thank god for your one beautiful healthy daughter, while not blaming him for your multiple miscarriages. Wouldn't your other children have been just as beautiful? Why did "God" not give them the gift of life?

Like I said, it's a tough question and I hope I don't seem rude. I just don't understand why people praise god when something goes well, yet hold him blamess for their sufferings. Isn't it infinitely more likely that god had nothing to do with either event?

Also, what do you make of 7 month old babies who die from SIDS? What does god have against these innocent bundles of joy?

I don't know why I lost my other babies, but I am thankful that I have a child. I don't know why babies die. I think there are some things that happen because of choices society as a whole makes that effect us all. We choose to build and drive and because of that we have pollution, and because of that people have allergies. We have knowledge to do many things and often those things cause illness and suffereing. God is not doing it. He gives us a brain and free will and He allows us to live as we choose. And because of choices we make, there is evil and pain and illness.
But when we choose to follow Him, even in the midst of all the chaos we don't understand, in the midst of grief, He gives us peace and hope and joy.

[lobrobster]

No, God loves every child. He loves those babies I lost. When I lost my babies I'm sure there were other expectant moms praying that her child would be delivered and they were.
I don't understand why some prayers are answered and some are seemingly not, I do know that when we pray "They will be done" we are also saying, that "if you don't answer my prayer according to what I want, give me grace and mercy"

Then wouldn't it make more sense to just let, "Thy will be done"? I mean, if god is going to do what he wants anyway, why bother praying? Btw-

I was brought up Catholic and used to pray every night as a kid before bed. I always felt guilty asking god for things. I felt guilty knowing I had food and a roof over my head, while others who were much more worthy than I, didn't. I couldn't understand that.

No offense, but in cases like Hurricane Katrina, or other castrophies, I find it to be the epitome of arrogance when one parent praises god for saving their child, while standing next to them is the parent of a dead child who didn't make it. I mean, what are they thinking?! But I guess we should forgive them, because... "They know not what they do".

[Homegirl 50]

God wants us to come to him with our concerns, He wants to inhabit our lives. His will is going to be done, but he also answers our prayers. As believers we grieve for those who lose loved ones and we praise Him with those who were OK. I lost a friend due to Katrina and I still grieve that loss, she left a child, and only child and she was a widow, so both of this young man's parents are gone.
I don't understand it all, but I know He is real, I know there are things that are just beyond my understanding, but I trust His heart.

[lobrobster]

God wants us to come to him with our concerns, He wants to inhabit our lives. His will is going to be done, but he also answers our prayers. As believers we grieve for those who lose loved ones and we praise Him with those who were OK. I lost a friend due to Katrina and I still grieve that loss, she left a child, and only child and she was a widow, so both of this young man's parents are gone.
I don't understand it all, but I know He is real, I know there are things that are just beyond my understanding, but I trust His heart.

If nothing else, I admire what it must be like to be able to place such faith in something. To not hold god accountable for all that is wrong with the world, to render him blameless for the untold suffering and misery when he could fix it in the blink of an eye, and then to praise him for the random events that turn out well.

I very much disagree with it and find it totally irrational (and often immoral by the way), but I do admire what it must be like to have such faith in something. Good luck and Merry Christmas!

[Homegirl 50]

I appreciate what you are saying. Man does the evil in the world not God. He had given us free will. Those you believe do so by choice. God does not sit up there pulling strings. He has given us guidelines to follow but He allows us to do as we choose and the world to turn on it's axis. But there will be a time when He will say "that's it" and people will have to answer for the wrong they have done and those who believe will be with him. All those wrongs will be made right.
I do appreciate the respectful way your questions were asked.
Merry Christmas to you as well.

[lobrobster]

Man does the evil in the world not God.

But I have to take exception to this! What evil did your unborn children do? What evil has an 11 year girl who is suffering terribly and about to die from cancer commit? Or all the babies who die from SIDS, or who were drowned in Hurricane Katrina?

Can you see why I have a problem with this? It seems believers want to have it both ways. When something goes right it's, "Praise be to God!". When something goes wrong it's, "Oh, well it was just God's will".

If a terrible death befalls an adult tomorrow, I can accept you blaming all the evil in the world. But I don't see how that can wash when we're talking about innocent children who couldn't possibly have done harm to anyone and certainly weren't evil.

Clarify this and you'll have me on the road towards being convinced. Like I said, I was a believer well into my teens. But not being able to reconcile these types of issues were what led me to becoming an atheist. When I realized there was no god, it all started making sense. With a god, it makes no sense. Especially not when we're talking about a loving, omnipotent one. Can you help me out?

[Homegirl 50]

I understand what you're saying. I just don't see God's hand in the bad things that happen to people.
God does not want children to die, or creeps to harm children, he does not want man to sin, but he does not control us. There is sickness in the world, has always been, our bodies are corruptible.
I wish I had answers, but I don't.

[lobrobster]

Thanks homegirl. Last question then I won't bug you anymore...

I understand what you're saying. I just don't see God's hand in the bad things that happen to people.

Then can you please, please, explain why you see His hand in the GOOD that happens to people? Either God intervenes or He doesn't. Which is it?

[MoonlitWaves]

But I have to take exception to this! What evil did your unborn children do? What evil has an 11 year girl who is suffering terribly and about to die from cancer commit? Or all the babies who die from SIDS, or who were drowned in Hurricane Katrina?

Can you see why I have a problem with this? It seems believers want to have it both ways. When something goes right it's, "Praise be to God!". When something goes wrong it's, "Oh, well it was just God's will".

If a terrible death befalls an adult tomorrow, I can accept you blaming all the evil in the world. But I don't see how that can wash when we're talking about innocent children who couldn't possibly have done harm to anyone and certainly weren't evil.

Clarify this and you'll have me on the road towards being convinced. Like I said, I was a believer well into my teens. But not being able to reconcile these types of issues were what led me to becoming an atheist. When I realized there was no god, it all started making sense. With a god, it makes no sense. Especially not when we're talking about a loving, omnipotent one. Can you help me out?

It all goes back to Adam and Eve lobroster. When they ate of the tree they sinned, they knew evil then. God told them if they ate they would surely die. He didn't mean right at that moment, but that man would die. All was perfect before that and would have continued that way had thy not ate of the tree of knowledge. It was man, NOT God who brought suffering, strife and sinners into this world.

Okay, so now you may wonder why then, knowing the bad and evil that would come, would God have even allowed the tree. This is because God wants people to choose to love Him, choose to follow him. If they had no options then Adam & Eve wouldn't have had a choice, would they?

Why then does God allow bad things to happen to good people, to innocent people, you may wonder. Even you as an atheist know that when things are going good many people aren't as faithful to God. If everything went good then why would we need God in our earthly life? If things were always good why would we even call on God to begin with? You see, not always, but many people call on God for salvation when they are at their lowest of lows, or in dire need and trouble. God never called trouble and strife on us, man did.

You said when something goes right we praise God, but when it goes wrong we say it's God's will. Nothing about God is bad, things are bad because of the world. When things go bad we cannot justifiably blame God because things would not have been this way was it not for man. But God offers us courage, comfort, strength and love to get through those times. Therefore if we want it, we need to go to Him in prayer, talk to Him, ask. We praise God when things go well because we thank Him for giving and allowing us things going right.

This is what I believe wholeheartedly. Since God is nothing but good, since He does not and never did want bad, I do not believe His will is ever bad. God did not cause strife, man did. So when something bad happens I do not believe it is God's will, but the cause of the world. Let's take for example someone you love with cancer. It is not God's will that your loved one got cancer, it is the cause of the what's in this bad and sinful world. Here is where God's will does kick in. You pray and pray that God will heal them and allow them more time with you. I believe it to be God's will whether He answers your prayer or not. See, He didn't cause the cancer, but He can rid it... if it's in His will. Many people look at it the wrong way. Instead of wondering why he doesn't rid of cancer we should be wondering why He does rid of it. We should be wondering why He was gracious enough to rid someone of cancer. Lobrobster, we are not deserving of God's grace. But He is gracious because He loves us because He wants good for us. But we cannot have the good He wants for us in this world. So if God does take the loved one who has cancer there is a reason He did it. There is a reason He did rid the cancer. If He does rid of it then there is a reason He got rid of it. But He is not to blame for the cancer in the first place. Do you see what I mean?

Why must we suffer because of Adam and Eve? I can't answer that. But I find comfort in knowing that it won't be for long. That when I die or if Jesus comes back before then I will no longer have to worry about sorrow, strife, evil and sin. I will live forever in perfection, love and being loved like nothing and no one in this world can give, being with God in bliss for all eternity, bliss that God intended from the get go.

When people stop blaming God for the bad, they will then be able to see His goodness... even in the midst of all this bad.

Lobrobster, prayer is not futile. For one it is a way for us to talk to God. It is a way for us to be as close to Him as we can get in this world. It is for asking for forgiveness and getting guidance, strength to live in this world and comfort. Prayer is also for asking. But remember this. Why should God give to anyone who doesn't do anything for Him? I truly believe that if you do the best you can according to Him, He will heed your prayers. Therefore it is not futile to pray. It is a necessity in the Christian walk of life.

[Homegirl 50]

Thanks homegirl. Last question then I won't bug ya anymore...




Then can you please, please, explain why you see His hand in the GOOD that happens to people? Either God intervenes or He doesn't. Which is it?

Good things happen to good and bad people. He sun shines and it rains on the just and the unjust. Such is life. Good happens, people make good choices, things fall into place, and sometimes, for whatever reason, God intervenes and or answers prayer. When His face shines on me, I thank Him, when the sun shines, I thank Him, it is His creation, as is the rain and storms. My life is not going to be pain or grief free, but He gives me peace and mercy in the midst of it and for that I thank Him.

[lobrobster]

...and sometimes, for whatever reason, God intervenes and or answers prayer.

Well again... I really appreciate your attempt to explain this to me. I think this is the impasse we'll never get resolved.

"for whatever reason" is just not a good enough answer for me when we're talking about all the terrible suffering some very good people go through, while (according to you), God chooses to help others much less deserving.

Imagine you had three children, two of who were stricken with a painful, suffering disease. How on earth could you ever justify helping one, but not the other? Plucking your one child out of misery, while watching your other suffer a slow, painful, agonizing death?

And if you really did have such powers, would you honestly expect your 3rd child to idolize and worship you, after having allowed one of his siblings such a fate? When all you had to do was snap your fingers and his fallen brother/sister could've been healed? I could never respect such a parent/god and certainly couldn't consider him loving. Cruel in the most extreme sense, would be more apt.

I certainly don't mean to put down those individuals who worship such a god. I'd just like to get them to think a little more about what they're worshipping.

[MoonlitWaves]

Well again... I really appreciate your attempt to explain this to me. I think this is the impasse we'll never get resolved.

"for whatever reason" is just not a good enough answer for me when we're talking about all the terrible suffering some very good people go through, while (according to you), God chooses to help others much less deserving.

Imagine you had three children, two of who were stricken with a painful, suffering disease. How on earth could you ever justify helping one, but not the other? Plucking your one child out of misery, while watching your other suffer a slow, painful, agonizing death?

And if you really did have such powers, would you honestly expect your 3rd child to idolize and worship you, after having allowed one of his siblings such a fate? When all you had to do was snap your fingers and his fallen brother/sister could've been healed? I could never respect such a parent/god and certainly couldn't consider him loving. Cruel in the most extreme sense, would be more apt.

I certainly don't mean to put down those individuals who worship such a god. I'd just like to get them to think a little more about what they're worshipping.

I know you are talking to homegirl here, but I would like to respond if you do not mind.

Again I will say, blame cannot be put on God for the bad in this world. Why must you know what God's reason are for healing some and not others? How can you possibly know why God does what He does? You have a hard time understanding why He doesn't heal some, but truth be told you don't know why He DOES heal some. Oh but you don't question Him when He does heal people, just when He doesn't. He's good and all when He does, but He's bad when He doesn't. We don't know His reasons, but there is a reason. Even if you did believe in God like homegirl and I, you still wouldn't know why He heals some and not others. Man is the cause of the terrible in this world. It was perfect in the beginning and they chose the other way. Yet even after God gave them perfection and they disobeyed Him He still offers us a way for perfection again. The direction of your focus is on the wrong thing. Do not focus on this world, but on how to get to what really matters which is God, Heaven, perfection, love eternal. That is our purpose in this life... to learn about God, spread it around, win souls for what really matters... your life here after.

[lobrobster]

Why must you know what God's reason are for healing some and not others?

Well, I guess it's because I'm logical. What I'm really asking here is this:

Why do you hold God to a different set of moral standards than you would for anyone else? If you were to witness me helping my one child, and then stand there doing nothing while I watched my other child drown helplessly in a wading pool, you would consider me to be among the cruelest of parents! You would NOT say, "Oh, well let's not question why he stood there and did nothing while one child drowned, let's only appreciate the fact that he saved his other child".

I just don't think you can have it both ways. If you claim God does not intervene, then fine. But to claim He intervenes sometimes, and not others is to admit your god is either unjust, not omnipotent, or just doesn't give a hoot. I'd accept any of these notions. But to say he intervenes only when he wants is to beg the question: Then why not help all the other deserving souls?

Also, please understand that I'm not looking to stir trouble. I'm honestly trying to understand how the believer mind works. It doesn't make sense to me. I'm concerned for my own children who must grow up in a world where people would want nothing more than to saw their heads off, because they don't believe in a particular god or brand of religion. I think religion at it's base concept is irrational and potentially very dangerous.

I'm sure people like yourself and homegirl are not dangerous. But your axioms are. It's not a gigantic step to go from where you are, to justifying just about anything in the name of god and religion. How can you honestly tell a terrorist his beliefs are wrong, when neither of you require the same rationale for your beliefs and actions that you would expect anyone to have with any other subject except religion?

[Homegirl 50]

God's ways are not ours, we cannot possibly understand God, and I don't try to. He does not go around zapping things into shape. There would be no reason to acknowledge or worship Him. He would be in total control and things would be perfect. We would have no free will. It used to be that way and Adam and Eve chose to do their thing and choice was then given to all. In my humanness, I don't understand the whys, He sees and knows what I do not, cannot, He sees the big picture, I see the here and now. I guess this is where faith comes in. Although I don't see and understand, I trust God.

[savedsinner7]

God is perfect and we are not. We cannot attempt to understand Him by human reasonings or we degrade Him to our level. To understand Him, we must be lifted by His grace to an understanding of Him nearer to His level. We cannot ast human sttributes on God, but must attempt to see Him through perfection, to see ourselves through His eyes, not see Him through our eyes.

Job 10
Job: I Would Plead with God
1 “My soul loathes my life;
I will give free course to my complaint,
I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.
2 I will say to God, 'Do not condemn me;
Show me why You contend with me.

3 Does it seem good to You that You should oppress,
That You should despise the work of Your hands,
And smile on the counsel of the wicked?

4 Do You have eyes of flesh?
Or do You see as man sees?

5 Are Your days like the days of a mortal man?
Are Your years like the days of a mighty man,

6 That You should seek for my iniquity
And search out my sin,

7 Although You know that I am not wicked,
And there is no one who can deliver from Your hand?

8 'Your hands have made me and fashioned me,
An intricate unity;
Yet You would destroy me.

9 Remember, I pray, that You have made me like clay.
And will You turn me into dust again?

10 Did You not pour me out like milk,
And curdle me like cheese,

11 Clothe me with skin and flesh,
And knit me together with bones and sinews?

12 You have granted me life and favor,
And Your care has preserved my spirit.

13 'And these things You have hidden in Your heart;
I know that this was with You:

14 If I sin, then You mark me,
And will not acquit me of my iniquity.

15 If I am wicked, woe to me;
Even if I am righteous, I cannot lift my head.
I am full of disgrace;
See my misery!

16 If my head is exalted,
You hunt me like a fierce lion,
And again You show Yourself awesome against me.

17 You renew Your witnesses against me,
And increase Your indignation toward me;
Changes and war are ever with me.

18 'Why then have You brought me out of the womb?
Oh, that I had perished and no eye had seen me!

19 I would have been as though I had not been.
I would have been carried from the womb to the grave.

20 Are not my days few?
Cease! Leave me alone, that I may take a little comfort,

21 Before I go to the place from which I shall not return,
To the land of darkness and the shadow of death,

22 A land as dark as darkness itself,
As the shadow of death, without any order,
Where even the light is like darkness.'”

Job argues with God about the state of his welfare. Satan asked God if he could test Job and God agreed. Nothing happens in this life without God's knowledge. He may not choose what satan dishes out, but He is aware. Job ended saying: Job 13:15
Though He slay me, yet will I trust Him.Even so, I will defend my own ways before Him.
Job 13:14-16 (in Context) Job 13 (Whole Chapter)

Even though Job had everything taken from him: his wealth, family and health, he did not turn his back on the LORD and he was blessed with double what was stolen.

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.

[MoonlitWaves]

But to say he intervenes only when he wants is to beg the question: Then why not help all the other deserving souls?

Homegirl hit it on the head with her post below yours.
I hate that you must know His reasons in order to believe in Him, love Him and trust Him, but you can't possibly know why He does everything that He does. Again, you are looking at it the wrong way. Instead of wondering why he doesn't make everything good you should be wondering why He does the good He does do. We don't deserve His grace period. You have difficulty seeing and understanding because you are thinking wrong from the get go. You said, Why doesn't He help other "deserving" souls? Who's deserving lobrobster?

Listen to what savedsinner said. You cannot look at God through your eyes.
How do you expect to understand the ways of an infinite God with your finite ability to understand? But know this lobrobster, God is nothing but good, therefore you can be sure that even when you don't understand why He does some things, or allows some things, that there is a reason for it. There is a reason, a reason you may not see or understand, but there is one.
Lobrobster, you will never see that God is nothing but good if you continue to think that He does bad things. God does not and never did have anything to do with the bad. Bad is of the world, God is not of the world!

Also, please understand that I'm not looking to stir trouble. I'm honestly trying to understand how the believer mind works. It doesn't make sense to me.

I never thought you were trying to stir up trouble. In fact I encourage you to ask. Please ask about anything you don't understand or want to know about. This site is about asking questions, but sometimes we just want to discuss, so if ever you just want to discuss something then you are more than welcome to send me a private message.