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deist · Oct 11, 2007, 04:21 AM

Christians like to point to changed lives & christians dying for their faith as proof of the resurrection of Jesus, but is this really proof ? Proponents of other religions experience changed lives & die for their faith also, but do you believe their testimony ?

RickJ · Oct 11, 2007, 04:34 AM

I agree with you. Changed lives and martyrdom are not proofs for the resurrection of Jesus.

kindj · Oct 11, 2007, 06:15 AM

There is no evidence that is compelling enough for someone who does not wish to see it.

Likewise, for those who do wish to find truth in something, the evidence need not be all that strong.

It's all faith and belief. Why not leave it at that? Don't individuals still have the freedom to choose what they believe in?

Choux · Oct 11, 2007, 10:20 AM

The Power of Positive Thinking" by Norman Vincent Peale is still widely read by people who want to have a better more successful life. Truisms contained therein:

"You are what you think. You feel what you want."

"All of our feelings and beliefs are based on our internal thoughts, both conscious and subconscious. We are in control, whether we know it or not.(paraphrased)

"Aim high and do your best"Aim high and do your best"We can be positive or negative, enthusiastic or dull, active or passive."

Whatever way a person changes for the better, that is lessens his/her suffering and becomes a joy to others instead of a being a drag... that is wonderful!

It is primarily about *changing* and becoming a positive person with friends who are positive, not those who throw pity parties and become "We can be positive or negative, enthusiastic or dull, active or passive.". Some people get started through a born again experience, some through therapy, some through riding through the bad times living and learning and coming out a true mature person... whatever...

Changed lives prove that person changed his/her life... nothing to do with "alabi Ike"...

fallen2grace · Oct 11, 2007, 09:28 PM

Mmm.. I have never heard about people's changed lives. Are you saying about Today? Or you know back then?

deist · Oct 12, 2007, 06:17 AM

Originally Posted by fallen2grace

Mmm.. I have never heard about people's changed lives. Are you saying about Today? Or you know back then?

In his book, Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Josh McDowell sites the changed lives of believers throughout the years as proof of the resurrection. People of all religions experience change in their lives & it's not proof of the validity of their beliefs.

RickJ · Oct 12, 2007, 06:44 AM

McDowell's Evidence books (There are two, then a third of both of the two plus some additional material) are excellent in many respects but like the argument above, he too often "stretches" like that.

savedsinner7 · Oct 12, 2007, 02:49 PM

Changed lives may be evidence of the resurrection power of Jesus, but the evidence of His resurrection is in the testimonies of those witnesses as recorded in the Bible.

deist · Oct 12, 2007, 03:44 PM

Originally Posted by savedsinner7

changed lives may be evidence of the resurrection power of Jesus, but the evidence of His resurrection is in the testimonies of those witnesses as recorded in the Bible.

It has long been established that none of the gospels were written by the men whose names they bear, but rather by unknown authors. And as I said in another thread on hearsay, the bible is not true revelation, but hearsay. The only way it would be revelation is if you yourself had the bible dictated to you by God in person, & not through someone else such as an apostle or a prophet. Look up the definition of hearsay sometime.

fallen2grace · Oct 12, 2007, 04:16 PM

Oh. I see. Well what I think is that people's lives are changed because of it. I wouldn't really say it was proof or evidence. It mainly relies on faith, in my opinion.