[N0help4u]

Yeah greed equals selfishness and selfishness IS the root of all sin

[chek101]

Pride my friends is the deadliest of all sins. It ismentioned in the Bible as well as many of the great literary books on the subject, Paradise Lost, Dante's Divine Comedy, and the Bible.

Pride is the precursor to all sins and that is why it is the first sin mentioned in the Bible with thestory of the Garden of Eden. Mans first sin on earth was Pride and it alsomentions that "pride cometh before the fall" this is in relation to Satans fall from heaven and also of man's fall from grace.

We all have our own opinion which is valid but to be technically sound about it the bible says it Pride and i agree.

I disagree that pride is the precursor to all sin, because if it were not for pride no one would work as hard as they do, achieve as much as they do, right down to the most mundane of chores, house-cleaning. Can you imagine what a home would be like without pride? What would DaVinci's work be without pride? Pride is not bad, but like all things... ANYTHING taken to excess is, and anything taken to excess is GREED!

If it is written in the Bible, and mind you, this is just MY VIEWS, it is folklore, passed on by word of mouth till fact became an acceptable fiction.
How many times have you heard the scenario about the same car accident viewed by a number of observers with each observer giving a different explanation of what they think they saw? Each gave very different opinions of what they witnessed! And this while the observation was taking place at the same time. So, how much of an event, do you think, carried through the ages can possibly remain all fact? Certainly not a 100 per cent given the time lapse between oration/and or writings and event. I'd say more like 10 percent.

Again, just my opinion: the Bible is a contrivance that served to control the masses, and it only has a ten law constitution: the Ten Commandments. The whole concept of the stories in the Bible are designed to either fill your heart with love or fear, though mostly the Bible scared the daylights out of me as a kid. Either or... makes no difference, as long as you obeyed the Ten Commandments... either out of love or out of fear. I wonder how many of you do so out of fear?

[BMI]

Regardless of your thoughts on whatthe Bible is or is not, I think if you meditate on the subject of sin you will probably connect it to most crimes, downfalls of nations, or individuals throughout history. The phrase "pride cometh before the fall" applies to world figures, nations, and even perhaps in your own daily life when things go wrong. Break-ups, hurt feelings, not getting job promotions because some otherguy got it, not being looked at, feeling fat, feeling like you don't belong, feeling insulted, oh the list goes on andon and these are very daily events, all Pride my friend. Most of our feelings are based on pride orat the root of the issues we face pride always comes to the surface.

[chek101]

Again, I state resolutely that it is EXCESS of pride that led to many a mishap as, again, would anything else done to excess.
Are you saying that we should all not shower, nor comb our hair, or work at our marriage, and forget about weight problems so we can die of heart attacks? Is that not pride? If anything pride is the more efficient precursor to self improvement, a good motivator towards building a better life for yourself and your family. That word "better" is synonymous with "pride" by the way, and therefore certainly not a bad thing. Do you think it's sin to take pride in your work, or have your chest fill with it when you behold the work of man and our beautiful cities?
"Make me proud, son." What is that? Evil? Or the installation of the willingness to do better, to take pride in, to be prideful.
,"Pride goeth before a fall" is not the all inclusive representation it should be. It is ONLY a fragment of it. As it was stated at the time I am sure it referenced some cataclysmic event in our history. But has not love also served to represent a downfall? Anthony and Cleopatra? Is love bad? Or an obsessive love? Love to Excess? No, GREED is EXCESS.

[BMI]

You seem to confuse forms of good pride with the sin of pride. Is itnot good to want to achieve success for one's self and family without being greedy, could one dream of making love to someone they love without being lustful?

Arguing that greed is the deadliest of all sins in just not true, I meanyes youcan have your opinion but it goes against what has been established by again , the Bible, some of thegreatest thinkers ever born as well as someof the greatest writers of all time. So if you refute mypoints you refute theirs to and that is not an argument you can really win.

Pride IS the first sin and it is the root of all others, this is well documented in any book written about theseven deadly sins and is cross referenced to many of the most known and outstanding books andideas on the subjects, feel free to research that yourself and perhaps that will settle the debate better than I could ever.

[chek101]

I don't agree with the Bible. You do! What can I say? I subscribe to logic not contrivance.

[shatteredsoul]

I too do not agree with the bible and my opinions in some ways are very similar. However, it is difficult for those who do look to the bible for answers from God, to look within to find the truth that seems so simple and clear to you. If it isn't written, than some people don't trust it... however just because it is written, doesn't mean it is verbatum what God wants us to believe. I don't think God wants us to do anything, except find the answers within about how to live our lives and to create true spiritual awareness and growth... it isn't easy. IT is an ongoing process and many of us think that by defining what is wrong, we will know what is right.

The thing is, I don't think the commandments are what God created, but something society and man created out of a desire to follow God.
The bible has its benefits, its stories and lessons. We should be able to express our thoughts, feelings and opinions, without quoting what the bible said. That is difficult. Yes, I think greed, pride and selfishness, all bring about negative results. However without knowing what they are and experiencing them, how would we know better or different?
People think the answers are black and white, written for us to know. IF the answers were truly understood by man, we wouldn't be having this debate to begin with.

The infiniteness and greatness of God is something we cannot comprehend or explain, that is a fact. The particulars on what each of us believe or don't, are our opinions and they are based on our life experiences and the knowledge we gain through them. No one is right or wrong, we just have different perceptions. God wouldn't create us with the ability to have differences, or opinions, or the free will to choose what we believe, as well as the ability to sin, if it wasn't meant to be. Why would a world be created with all the opportunities we have, to be crucified later for it... That doesn't mean we aren't responsible for our actions, karma has a way of working that out. What you put out in the universe, you get back.

As far as the commandments go, it is a method of determining how to live life in a way that is in unity with others in a way that prevents imbalance and negativity. If God created the commandments, don't you think God is capable of creating the opportunity to sin in the first place? The ways to live your life in balance have to come from within, not a bible, not from the ten commmandments, and not from laws set by others. Yes there are standards set by society to prevent chaos and discord, but how that is implemented or understood, is different for each individual. Judging what others believe or don't isn't what God does, its what humans do..

[chek101]

[QUOTE=shatteredsoul]I too do not agree with the bible and my opinions in some ways are very similar. However, it is difficult for those who do look to the bible for answers from God, to look within to find the truth that seems so simple and clear to you. If it isn't written, than some people don't trust it... however just because it is written, doesn't mean it is verbatum what God wants us to believe.

Shattered,

Well written and well appreciated! :)

The real problem here is not so much that people don't trust what is not written, but rather that they don't trust themselves. They move through life under a looming cloud of uncertainty and so they look to the written word for clarity. What they don't seem to comprehend is that the written word was written by human hands, human hands that re-interpretated the interpretations of someone else's opinion, a bunch of someone else's at that. How one can can find clarity in that, is a wonderment to me.
Just as what I am writing here, is opinion. I don't expect what I'm saying to be accepted as gospel: as undeniable fact. But because many people (a multitude of followers) BACK the statements written in a compilations of opinions called the Bible, it becomes an irrevocable precedence for half the world to follow. My opinion is by far, outweighed.

Not that I care whether I am believed or not, but neither do I dare to define a code of ethics for all mankind to follow. I simply say, go within, not without. By that I mean pay attention! Pay attention to that whisper that you can barely hear. THAT is the voice inside you and THAT should be your God (if you will) and guidance in all things. If you are a decent ordinary sort, then what's inside can't be worse. Why pay attention to what's outside? To "pack" lore? Just because the majority follows it? Judgement is owned by you and no one else but you.

I saw a whole heard of wilderbeast jump off a cliff and hurdle themselves to their deaths. Where the leaders went, so went the rest. But these are animals, not a one among them with the ability to choose not to follow, not a one among them with the power... the power of judgement, otherwise referred to here as simple common sense. And most of us are decent people. A hard thing, I know, to keep to in this day and age when we see so much corruption and "bending" of the rules going on, but still, in the end, it's up to you to decide and abide by your code of ethics and honor. You are entitled to your own opinion just as the writers of the Bible are, but would you insist your every opinion to be a decree as the Bible does? I just believe what's in me. C'mon people, how bad is that? To believe in yourself?

[firmbeliever]

I believe in my faith because I believe in myself and my ability to discern the truth when I see it... :)

[chek101]

I believe in my faith because I believe in myself and my ability to discern the truth when I see it...:)

If you believe in yourself, why have faith in something else? Forgive me, but I am Italian! You know... thick headed! :p

[NeedKarma]

I believe in my faith because I believe in myself and my ability to discern the truth when I see it...:)

That's weird because I say I believe in myself and my ability to discern the truth when I see it, without requiring any faith.

[firmbeliever]

If you believe in yourself, why have faith in something else? Forgive me, but I am Italian! You know ... thick headed! :p

For me it does not make sense to be born,live and die for no apprent reason and without any consequences because of my actions or non-actions.

And I find that my faith answers all these questions and gives the right direction for living this life well and to work for an afterlife.
This makes things I do in this world worthwhile.

Someone else taking responsibility for my actions does not make sense to me either and having an intermediary between me and the Almighty does not make sense.
Having a direct connection to the Almighty and being answerable for my own actions,that makes sense to me.

Hope that helped a little.
And you Chek are far from thick headed.. ;)

[chek101]

For me it does not make sense to be born, live and die for no apparent reason and without any consequences because of my actions or non-actions.
Why does it have to? Why complicate the pot with how it did the deed? A line from a short poem I wrote about Brewing Tea oddly enough. Now that makes sense to me! We humans think we are owed explanations for everything. Mow a lawn and ask the grass what it thinks about that! Are not we all in this life together? The difference is “ego.” And ego is a man thing, and ANYTHING of man is flawed! Inconsequential little toads that we are, ask that the universe answer to us?


And I find that my faith answers all these questions and gives the right direction for living this life well and to work for an afterlife.
This makes things I do in this world worthwhile.
But Firm, do you think you would behave differently if you did not subscribe to your faith? Do you think yourself, weak? That you need the crutch of faith to lean on? I have no faith in anything outside myself! And I was raised a Catholic and went to church, the whole nine yards as a kid. All that got me was a head full of questions, not about life, but about putting my trust (faith) in a small black book and a fancy building full of statues. Just as I am, I have helped a great many people in my life even when I knew I would not be rewarded and suffer consequences, but they were consequences that I embraced and dealt with squarely, chin out and all that, and I didn't't need or want confirmation from anything or anyone else outside my own sense of what it is I can live with and what it is I can't. Worthwhile? Not a bad thought “the things I do in this world worth while” … just as long as you don't value yourself, more. You see, none of us is worth much without each other. We need to discard the “me” robe and slip into a garment of finer, humbler material.

Someone else taking responsibility for my actions does not make sense to me either and having an intermediary between me and the Almighty does not make sense. Having a direct connection to the Almighty and being answerable for my own actions, that makes sense to me.
Sorry, but that makes no sense to me at all. About the “direct connection to the almighty” thing. If you state that you want to be answerable for your own actions, then why bother with a direct line to the “almighty?” I mean, what for? Do you need confirmation: affirmation or some sort of justification for whatever actions you took regardless of whether you were right or wrong from the perceived almighty? If so, then all you are really seeking is a way to cushion blame and humility.

……. And yes, I really do have a wooden head!

[firmbeliever]

Why does it have to?.....Inconsequential little toads that we are, ask that the universe answer to us?

But Firm, do you think you would behave differently if you did not subscribe to your faith? Do you think yourself, weak? That you need the crutch of faith to lean on?Worthwhile? Not a bad thought “the things I do in this world worth while” … just as long as you don't value yourself, more. You see, none of us is worth much without each other. We need to discard the “me” robe and slip into a garment of finer, humbler material.

I will try to explain how I see it,which in no way has to be accepted by you or anyone else.Just opinion.
I used to be someone who would regret every little thing I do.I would keep asking myself "why" all the time.If anyone comments on what I do or how I did something, I would wonder for days analysing the exact words and the meaning behind the words.
"If only I had done/not done" used to be a common term in my vocabulary.

And when I started to realise that there is no way I could go around pleasing every other person, I found that I needed a standard of character which I found in my religion.
Human standards are flawed, there is no pleasing all,especially when it comes to personal beliefs.So I aim for the highest, which I might not reach even halfway,but seeing the standard gives me strength knowing that I am on the right path.The result will be my state of affairs after my death.
I do not wish for name,fame or fortune in this worldly life when I die.Living a life pleasing my Lord,which has made me a better,balanced person.
I no longer look for approval from my family or friends, I know what lines to cross and what not to cross.
And criticism is something I can take through one ear and out the other,if I think it is constructive I will look into it,but I will not berate myself over it.
About knowing if I will behave differently,I do not know to answer that because from the time I could remember I was a good disciplined person.I respected my elders/youngsters alike.Always helpful,had many friends but few close, great friends.People respected me and most of the time they listened to me because I was always a bit more serious about life than most kids my age.I always had good clean fun,rarely got into trouble.
This was all when I wasn't a practising person of my religion.
So I do not see my faith as a crutch,but a strength which adds to my character.

Since I started being a practising muslim I have found that I do not expect people to acknowledge or be thankful for any favours I do, which I used to expect before.
And when people wrong me, I might cry a little or be sad about it,but this is for a few moments because I know that each person will have their due whether good or bad after death.
Believe me I am not perfect nor anywhere near it,but each struggle is worth it because I know every little/big struggle I go through may not be seen by those I love and care about,but I know the Almighty knows what is in my heart of hearts.

Sorry, but that makes no sense to me at all. About the “direct connection to the almighty” thing.

The direct connection I mentioned because many faiths have saviours,priests, or holy men who will pardon me or ask forgiveness for my sins.Sometimes connection to the Almighty between the lower classes in some religions is not direct,which means that this person will have to rely upon another person who claims to be holy to ask on the poor persons behalf.

About cushioning blame and humility.
I do not really need approval in this worldly life, which I believe lasts only as long as I live.
This might be until tomorrow or it maybe 40-50 years from now.
I believe in an everlasting life beyond this life and I wish to be ready for that.

[NeedKarma]

I used to be someone who would regret every little thing I do.I would keep asking myself "why" all the time.If anyone comments on what I do or how I did something, I would wonder for days analysing the exact words and the meaning behind the words.
"If only I had done/not done" used to be a common term in my vocabulary.

And when I started to realise that there is no way I could go around pleasing every other person, I found that I needed a standard of character which I found in my religion.

I find this to be a common theme for those devouts: this is some personal inner turmoil that they are trying to resolve and cannot do it on their own so they turn to religion. If this makes them a better person then I'm all for it (as long as they don't go on a mission to convert others or "spread the good news").

But realize that a lot of us in this world manage just fine, go through no such turmoils, make good decisions and operate day to day without the need for a belief in an external force to worship.

[firmbeliever]

I find this to be a common theme for those devouts: this is some personal inner turmoil that they are trying to resolve and cannot do it on their own so they turn to religion. If this makes them a better person then I'm all for it (as long as they don't go on a mission to convert others or "spread the good news").

But realize that a lot of us in this world manage just fine, go through no such turmoils, make good decisions and operate day to day without the need for a belief in an external force to worship.

I do not know how common this theme is or not.
It is personal experience.

I am sure there are people who are much better than me,or who do much more good in this world than me and this temporary world seems better when we have good people like that.

All I know is that there is an afterlife and there are no exceptions to it.
Whether we believe in it or not, each will face death and what is beyond death.

[chek101]

[/QUOTE] All I know is that there is an afterlife and there are no exceptions to it.
Whether we believe in it or not, each will face death and what is beyond death.[/QUOTE]

How do you know there is an afterlife? Is this something you can prove? Or is this something you "believe?"
Another thought: what if you are wrong? Wouldn't it be better to know that there is no afterlife so that you will cherish THIS life more?

[firmbeliever]

All I know is that there is an afterlife and there are no exceptions to it.
Whether we believe in it or not, each will face death and what is beyond death.[/QUOTE]

How do you know there is an afterlife? Is this something you can prove? Or is this something you "believe?"
Another thought: what if you are wrong? Wouldn't it be better to know that there is no afterlife so that you will cherish THIS life more?[/QUOTE]

I guess you could call it belief, because I cannot scientifically prove it.

All I know is that all messengers from the beginning till ours talked about a life after death and about a day of judgement.

Well,what if I am right and others are wrong.
I am on the safe even if I am wrong.
About enjoying this life,I do enjoy it,but that does not mean I will be doing things that harm me/anyone else physically or mentally.

[chek101]

All I know is that there is an afterlife and there are no exceptions to it.

Well,what if I am right and others are wrong.
I am on the safe even if I am wrong. .

Do you know how new words get entered into a dictionary? Simply through popular use. The more commonly it is used, then this gains it entry into the dictionary, except for the real nasty words, of course.

You speak about how so many books talk about the "after life." Therefore, it MUST be true. That doesn't make it true, it just makes it a popular concept. Who WOULDN'T want to believe in an after life... hell, I would!! But I don't. And I can't live my life based on a popular concept, I might miss the magic in this one. Anyway, this thing I'm in called "life" is quite amazing and quite spectacular as it is. I would rather take IT into my lungs, even with its rocky paths, than anything of a breathless death: the "after" life.

What is the after life like? Is it swirling circles of light and misty figures floating around you? If it doesn't have trees and seas and sky... its not for me, not what I would want to shoot for. My soul hungers for color! I don't see it as an afterlife ingredient.

If my brain can acknowledge this, or disavow it, then it must already know what IS or ISN'T there because I believe we come into this world already knowing everything but not privy to all of it. What triggers what, I don't know. I just FEEL/SENSE this to be true as you do your belief in the after life. Whatever floats your boat as they say is what matters. It's how you survive that counts. Peace!

[chek101]

Guess I scared you, right. You didn't appreciate the doubting, right? So be it.