[ETWolverine]

Elliot

Hegel would not call it a contradiction; he would call it dialectic. We know the tree by its fruits, and however we judge the fruit, we cultivate it.

Very poetic, but it doesn't really answer my question. How does your statement that "we do have a basis for determining morality, and that is based on the history of events through the flow of time" reconcile with your other statement that "the only historical aspect of morality is Religious and that was the claim to infallibility"? Talking about judging and cultivating fruits doesn't really answer the question, does it?

As for your statement that Sayet's arguments are strawmen, you seem to say that a lot whenever you don't want to answer specific points. You say that it is a strawman, that not everybody believes or follows that particular point of view, and therefore there is no reason to answer the argument. I don't buy it.

Cindy Sheehan, who has become a defacto leader of the modern liberal anti-war movement has made some very unsupportive comments about the troops, at the same time that she has demanded civil rights for Guantanimo detainees. Harry Reid, Jack Murtha, John Kerry, and others have accused the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan and the guards at Gitmo of horrendous acts... none of which have been proven, by the way... and in the same breath have demanded rights for Gitmo detainees. These are NOT isolated cases by joe schmoe on the street. These are the leaders of Modern Liberalism, and they have made these comments numerous times, not just once. And I won't get into comments made by George Sorros (the main money-man of liberalism today) and Michael Moore (their main cheerleader and PR guy).

I could do the same excersize for every topic and issue. I could point out Planned Parenthood's pro-condom/anti-abstinence stance. I could point to Hillary Clinton's and Barack Obama's attempts to increase the taxes on oil companies as a PUNITIVE ACTION FOR THEIR BEING SUCCESSFUL (says so right there in their own statements--- they want to tax the oil companies because they are making "too much money"), while at the same time pushing increases in welfare programs. In every issue, I can point out what the leadership is actually saying and promoting to prove that they are deliberately adopting the position that is contrary to historical norms of morality. But I think you get the point. The point is that these are NOT isolated incidents by a bunch of nobodies. These are the official positions of the leaders of liberalism on each of these issues.

So even if there are SOME lierals who do not believe these things, it seems clear to me that the leadership DOES. The strawman lies not in these arguments, but in an attempt to claim that "not everyone believes this stuff". It doesn't matter if everyone believes it, since the LEADERSHIP does.

Therefore, the arguments of Evan Sayet are valid, and attempts to call them "strawmen" are the real strawman of this topic... an attempt to present the oppositions argument in a weak light by claiming that "not everyone believes that".

Elliot

[Dark_crow]

You reap what you have sown because you were given a life of free will. By what perimeters and whose standards do you abide by, your own?


Bobby

Given by whom::)








Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism

[Dark_crow]

Elliot

I'm certain the people on the list below will be interested in your assertions, why don't you e-mail them your vision of truth.

• Jimmy Carter, humanitarian and former President
• Robert Casey, former Pennsylvania governor
• Bill Clinton, former President
• Dorothy Day, Catholic Worker Movement cofounder, Wobbly
• Diane Drufenbrock, nun, Socialist Party USA
• John Edwards, Former United States Senator and current Presidential candidate
• Al Gore, Former Vice President of the United States and activist
• Thomas J. Hagerty, founding member of IWW
• Ammon Hennacy, Wobbly
• Hubert Humphrey, Former Vice President of the United States
• Jesse Jackson, politician and civil rights leader
• John Lewis, U.S. congressman and civil rights leader
• Barack Obama, junior senator from Illinois, and current presidential candidate
• Walter Mondale, Former Vice President of the United States
• Franklin Delano Roosevelt, President
• Norman Thomas, Socialist Party of America presidential candidate
• Al Sharpton, 2004 Democratic presidential candidate and civil rights leader
• Harry S Truman, President

[BABRAM]

Given by whom

Islam, Judaism, Sikhism, Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Taoism

DC-

Nice graphics, but like Elliot has pointed out, you are becoming a champ of avoiding the questions. I asked, "By what perimeters and whose standards do you abide by, your own?"



Bobby

[Dark_crow]

DC-

Nice graphics, but like Elliot has pointed out, you are becoming a champ of avoiding the questions. I asked, "By what perimeters and whose standards do you abide by, your own?"
Bobby

Bobbie, am I on trial?
My point was who gave me free will? You said I was given free will, well, who did?

P.S. EDIT I did answer the question: “Of course your morality is an individual discretion…so long as you have free will.”

[BABRAM]

My point was who gave me free will? You said I was given free will, well, who did?.

DC- I already summarized to the whole board, on this very post (on thread six), that I recognize the Torah as the guideline. In fact you quoted me earlier on that. I don't think there are any guesses as to my Faith. I've been answering questions on Judaism boards for almost a decade now, including this one since July 18th.

P.S. EDIT I did answer the question: “Of course your morality is an individual discretion…so long as you have free will.”

Actually you brought up the subject of free will: to quote you, "so long as you have free will." I'm just trying to understand you, especially when you appear to contradict yourself and that's not just my own reasoning, but I see others noticed that as well. And BTW, you also appear to be getting defensive again. I've told you already that I respect your contributions on this board.

Bobbie, am I on trial?.

Now, if it were a trial, your lack of attention to detail would be scrutinised even by a beginner law clerk. Besides not answering the questions you are not spelling my name correctly, twice in the past week. Do you do that on purpose or is polite and respectful not on your personal moral list?



Bobby

[ETWolverine]

Elliot

I’m certain the people on the list below will be interested in your assertions, why don’t you e-mail them your vision of truth.

• Jimmy Carter, humanitarian and former President
• Robert Casey, former Pennsylvania governor
• Bill Clinton, former President
• Dorothy Day, Catholic Worker Movement cofounder, Wobbly
• Diane Drufenbrock, nun, Socialist Party USA
• John Edwards, Former United States Senator and current Presidential candidate
• Al Gore, Former Vice President of the United States and activist
• Thomas J. Hagerty, founding member of IWW
• Ammon Hennacy, Wobbly
• Hubert Humphrey, Former Vice President of the United States
• Jesse Jackson, politician and civil rights leader
• John Lewis, U.S. congressman and civil rights leader
• Barack Obama, junior senator from Illinois, and current presidential candidate
• Walter Mondale, Former Vice President of the United States
• Franklin Delano Roosevelt, President
• Norman Thomas, Socialist Party of America presidential candidate
• Al Sharpton, 2004 Democratic presidential candidate and civil rights leader
• Harry S Truman, President

First of all, let's eliminate Truman and FDR. They aren't MODERN liberals, they are old school liberals. Sayet's observations apply only to MODERN liberals... ei: those who have become the leadership since the late 60s and early 70s.

Jesse Jacksson and Al Sharpton are perfect examples of what I'm talking about... they are the epitome of preaching for increased welfare and more taxes on the rich. Their entire agenda DEPENDS on rewarding bad behavior with welfare and punishing good behavior with increased taxes to support the welfare programs.

Clinton and Gore are two more examples... Gore especially. Here's the guy who pushes a global warming agenda (designed to hurt American industry) by flying around in private jets and owning a home with one of the largest footprints in the entire USA. His bad behavior should be rewarded, but the good behavior of industry in producing what the nation needs should be punished via increased regulation.

And Clinton believes that his actions as president should leave behind a good legacy... in other words, his name should be rewarded, despite his outright lies and infedelities and lack of action against terrorists... but BUSH should be taken to task for defending the country. Good is punished and bad is rewarded.

Jimmy Carter is simply a bigot... he believes that Israel, the only stable democracy in the entire Middle East, and the only country that warns civilians before attacking an enemy position in wartime, should be punished, but the PA, which fields terrorists, funds terrorists, hides terrorists, and is in fact run by terorists, should be rewarded.

Diane Drufenbrock and Norman Thomas push a system that eliminates any sort of reward for good behavior and treats those with bad behavior as no different from anyone else. That is, in fact the very hallmark of Socialism. Those who are most productive are punished by being held back to the same level as everyone else, and those who are least productive to society are rewarded by being pulled up to the same level as everyone else.

I don't have time to go on with the list you provided, but I think you get the point. The very people you list prove my point for me. THEY may not see it from that perspective, but that is the result of their positions on the issues. They reward bad behavior, immorality and evil, and punish good behavior, morals and right-thinking.

I will speak more with you on this topic next week after the Jewish holidays are over.

Elliot

[BABRAM]

Clinton and Gore are two more examples... Gore especially. Here's the guy who pushes a global warming agenda (designed to hurt American industry) by flying around in private jets and owning a home with one of the largest footprints in the entire USA. His bad behavior should be rewarded, but the good behavior of industry in producing what the nation needs should be punished via increased regulation.

Interesting point on Gore that I had not considered. I have to take time here to credit Bush for pushing car manufacturers to search alternative fuels, especially when he first got into office. In fact that's why we have so many hybrid cars on the market in the US now.

Jimmy Carter is simply a bigot... he believes that Israel, the only stable democracy in the entire Middle East, and the only country that warns civilians before attacking an enemy position in wartime, should be punished, but the PA, which fields terrorists, funds terrorists, hides terrorists, and is in fact run by terrorists, should be rewarded.

I suppose if we can define bigot, as hypocritical; he's certainly shortsighted. And that's sad for one of my more favorite Presidents when it comes to humanitarian efforts where in the US he's been a champion. However, as you pointed out, Carter just fails continuously to understand the dynamics concerning Israel and the Middle East. You'd think that after 9/11 he would had re-thought his stance.

I will speak more with you on this topic next week after the Jewish holidays are over.

Sukkot/Shemini Atzeret. I think I'll take a few days off from the board as well. Everybody have a good day.



Bobby

[tomder55]

Happy Simchat Torah / Sukkot guys