[SSchultz0956]

As stated in my previous post, manipulation and coercion are forms of forcing propaganda. I'm not saying everyone does it, I'm just saying that there are some. It talks about man-made-doctrine being taught. This is the indoctination/brainwashing I'm talking about. I'm not saying the Witnesses, catholics, baptists, mormons, prodistants or any one else does this, I simply say that it does happen.

[SSchultz0956]

In reply to Morganite's request of a specific example here's this: This nameless church I referred and the end of each year will announce who has not donated money too the church, and the people are asked (on the spot) to explain themselves. This sounds pretty stupid to us, but you need to understand the culture of the Philippines. I'm fluent in their language and am extremely familiar with their culture, and this manipulates them and causes them to give money they don't have to the church. If they don't pay up they are excommunicated. This church was founded in the Philippines, and has very few congregations outside their country. In the mind of a Filipino, to admit your poor is beyond utter humiliation, and they would do anything to not leave that impression, like give away the little money they need to their church. Further if a member misses one week of church they are visited by their evangelical leader. Whichis good. Except that if they miss continuesly they ask for even more money, and will kick them out of the church.

[MaggieB]

Sorry, but what you are speaking of is most definitely not a Christ-centered church. A Christ-centered church has the love of Christ within it and follows the teachings of Christ. Of what you speak is most certainly not one of His teachings.

You are speaking of a forceable-business trying to maneuver as a church.
Everyone should immediately leave and never darken its doors again. Find a church that teaches and preachers the Word of God.

MaggieB

[phildebenham]

Amen, Maggie, Amen!

[Morganite]

In reply to Morganite's request of a specific example here's this: This nameless church i referred and the end of each year will announce who has not donated money too the church, and the people are asked (on the spot) to explain themselves. This sounds pretty stupid to us, but you need to understand the culture of the Philippines. I'm fluent in their language and am extremely familiar with their culture, and this manipulates them and causes them to give money they don't have to the church. If they don't pay up they are excommunicated. This church was founded in the Philippines, and has very few congregations outside their country. In the mind of a Filipino, to admit your poor is beyond utter humiliation, and they would do anything to not leave that impression, like give away the little money they need to their church. Further if a member misses one week of church they are visited by their evangelical leader. Whichis good. Except that if they miss continuesly they ask for even more money, and will kick them out of the church.

You could be telling the truth, but unless you are specific and give the name and location of the church, how can anyone find out for themselves?

Why are you reluctant to name a church that you criticize? Are you the pastor?

Tell all!



MORGANITE

[speedball1]

The Holy Word of God approves, nay, demands, of believers that they "all believe the same thing on all doctrine" Who can find fault with that?
MORGANITE

I can! I resent ANYONE or ANYTHING telling me how to think or what to believe.
There are some of us who are not "sheep" and don't feel the need to be "led" by a "shepherd". This doesn't make us "bad people" or "evil". This just makes us poor followers.
We make our own minds up as to what or what not to believe without any outside help from religion, a preacher, or a televangelist that wants your money to guarantee your salvation .

Hell is real!!
MaggieB

You're right Maggie and I found it right here on earth in my first marriage.

[MaggieB]

Sometimes it does seem to be hell here on earth, sorry that you went through a time such as this. However, I have to disagree with your words
Concerning paying preachers, TV evangelists, etc for salvation. That is an untrue statement. You pay no one for salvation, it is a free gift from God and available to all. You make a choice of accepting the GIFT or rejecting it. Our salvation was paid in full by the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Our sins were nailed to the cross with Jesus. The battle has been won, the victory is ours for the taking, no strings attached, no money involved.

In Acts chapter 16 we read that when Paul and Silas were in jail the jailer asked them "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" (Receive salvation). They replied, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all the others in his house and they were filled with joy, he and his whole house, because they had come to believe (chosen to believe) in God.

God is the same yesterday, today and forever and is waiting for all to come to Him.

MaggieB

[chrisl]

Why is it that Jehovah's Witness' all believe the same thing on all doctrine?

Because JWs honestly try to obey and apply what the Bible teaches. And since the Bible truly is God's word, the resulting unity of thought and action should not be a surprise. In fact, I would argue that a lack of unity is a red flag for any group that professes Christianity and adherence to the Bible.

As long as I live, I'll never understand the criticism that JWs are just too unified...

Chris

[phildebenham]

Because JWs honestly try to obey and apply what the Bible teaches. And since the Bible truly is God's word, the resulting unity of thought and action should not be a surprise. In fact, I would argue that a lack of unity is a red flag for any group that professes Christianity and adherence to the Bible.

As long as I live, I'll never understand the criticism that JWs are just too unified...

Chris

I am not speaking of what the bible teaches, Chris, I am speaking of what the leaders teach. If the leadership of the WTBTS tells you that Jesus will return in the flesh on January 30th, 2007 you will all believe it. When that day comes and goes and the WTBTS tells you the date is now February 3, 2010, you will believe that. Why?? Why do JW's believe everything their leaders say without so much as a question as to whether they just might be wrong? Let me give you a good example. The WTBTS says that God's name is Jehovah. However the tetragammaton, transliterated into english sounds, is YHWH, not JHVH. JHVH is the German pronunciation to which the vowels from adonai were added to created the name Jehovah. So, why, now that you know the truth, will you continue to call God Jehovah? Not because it is His name, but because the WTBTS says it is. JW's won't question it because to do so would be to go against the WTBTS, and that is a big no-no. Those who do question end up leaving the faith.

[chrisl]

JW's won't question it because to do so would be to go against the WTBTS, and that is a big no-no. Those who do question end up leaving the faith.

It's a good thing the apostles didn't feel as you do, that loyalty and obedience are shortcomings. Imagine the damage such a permissive attitude would have caused the early Christian congregations. And as Morganite rightly pointed out, Paul's letters are filled with admonition to avoid divisive opinions and disunity.

But eventually most did compromise their unity to follow their own ways, and the great apostasy and falling away foretold in the Bible and the absurd number of sects and denominations we see in Christendom today are the result. (1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:3)

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion. -- Jude 1:11

Study and learn from the example of Korah. (See Numbers 16 and 26)

Chris

[phildebenham]

It's a good thing the apostles didn't feel as you do, that loyalty and obedience are shortcomings. Imagine the damage such a permissive attitude would have caused the early Christian congregations. And as Morganite rightly pointed out, Paul's letters are filled with admonition to avoid divisive opinions and disunity.

But eventually most did compromise their unity to follow their own ways, and the great apostasy and falling away foretold in the Bible and the absurd number of sects and denominations we see in Christendom today are the result. (1 Tim. 4:1; 2 Thess. 2:3)

Woe to them! They have taken the way of Cain; they have rushed for profit into Balaam's error; they have been destroyed in Korah's rebellion. -- Jude 1:11

Study and learn from the example of Korah. (See Numbers 16 and 26)

Chris

Chris,

The Apostles did believe as I do. That is why they challenged (as did Jesus Himself) the teachings of the religious leadership (the Pharisees) of their day. There are places in the Word that teach us not to sew discord and disunity, but none of those tell us to become unified under teachings that are contrary to the bible. None of those tell us to accept blindly the teachings of those in an organization who are positionally above us. Indeed, we are to be like the Bareans who searched the scriptures to see if these things were true. As for the obscene number of denominations and sects, Jehovah's Witnesses are but another of those. My humble opinion is that Jehovah's Witnesses, by and large, follow blindly (they are not alone in this by any means) and thus are lead into error willingly. Going back to the example I gave: Jehovah's Witnesses teach that knowing God's name is an extreemely important part of true worship. However, you now know that Jehovah is not His name... still you will use it. It is an example of the blind leading the blind in the name of unity. Lemmings are unified as well... they all jump off the cliffs to their deaths together. Better to be unified in the faith of the Savior of the Scripture than the faith of an organization.

Phil

[speedball1]

The Holy Word of God approves, nay, demands, of believers that they "all believe the same thing on all doctrine" Who can find fault with that?
MORGANITE

I can!! I resent ANYONE or ANYTHING telling me how to think or what to believe.
There are some of us who are not "sheep" and don't feel the need to be "led" by a "shepherd". This doesn't make us "bad people" or "evil". This just makes us poor followers.

Hi Maggie, I notice you didn't disagree with that. Since time began priests, shamans and so called "holy men" have used religion and the fear of the unknown to control minds. Not only in the Christian Religion but in ALL religions. Just look at Jim Jones, David Korish and who could ever forget Oral Roberts when he said over his TV show. "God's gonna call me home unless ya send me six million dollars." And the idiots that watched his show sent it to him. Doesn't the phases "con man, flim flam artist and crook" just bubble right up? Regards, Tom

[Morganite]

Chris,

The Apostles did believe as I do. That is why they challenged (as did Jesus Himself) the teachings of the religious leadership (the Pharisees) of their day. There are places in the Word that teach us not to sew discord and disunity, but none of those tell us to become unified under teachings that are contrary to the bible. None of those tell us to accept blindly the teachings of those in an organization who are positionally above us. Indeed, we are to be like the Bareans who searched the scriptures to see if these things were true. As for the obscene number of denominations and sects, Jehovah's Witnesses are but another of those. My humble opinion is that Jehovah's Witnesses, by and large, follow blindly (they are not alone in this by any means) and thus are lead into error willingly. Going back to the example I gave: Jehovah's Witnesses teach that knowing God's name is an extreemely important part of true worship. However, you now know that Jehovah is not His name......still you will use it. It is an example of the blind leading the blind in the name of unity. Lemmings are unified as well....they all jump off the cliffs to their deaths together. Better to be unified in the faith of the the Savior of the Scripture than the faith of an organization.

Phil

Do you imagine [no on can be sure] that after searching the scriptures, the Bereans dissembled in what they believed?




MORGANITE



:)

[Morganite]

Hi Maggie, I notice you didn't disagree with that. Since time began priests, shamans and so called "holy men" have used religion and the fear of the unknown to control minds. Not only in the Christian Religion but in ALL religions. Just look at Jim Jones, David Korish and who could ever forget Oral Roberts when he said over his TV show. "God's gonna call me home unless ya send me six million dollars." And the idiots that watched his show sent it to him. Doesn't the phases "con man, flim flam artist and crook" just bubble right up? regards, Tom

Speedball, about your line-up, that is one that the majority of Chrisitans will also find distasteful. But can't you find in two thousand years any Christians who have done any good? Why focus on those whose erratic behavior is obvious?

Who is controlling my mind?






MORGANITE


:)

[Morganite]

Chris,

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that knowing God's name is an extremely important part of true worship. However, you now know that Jehovah is not His name......still you will use it.

Phil

What is God's name?





MORGANITE


:)

[phildebenham]

What is God's name?





MORGANITE


:)

Morganite,

Don't know. The translation into English is YHWH, which, without vowels, in not pronouncable. Could be Yahweh (which I use even though I am not sure of how accurate it is). Could be Yahoweh. I really don't know. However, I know it's not Jehovah for the Hebrew letters do not have the sounds of JHVH, they have the sounds of YHWH. Beyond that no one is certain.

Now, so that my question to Chris might not be taken wrongly, I have no problem with people using the name "Jehovah" to refer to the one true God. I understand Who they mean. Personally, I use Yahweh because it is, by virtue of the sounds we know are in the Name, closer to the true name than Jehovah. My point wasn't concerning the name of God, but rather that JW's accept forced indoctrination without so much as a question. If they do question they keep it to themselves for fear of being labeled unfaithful.

Phil

[phildebenham]

Do you imagine [no on can be sure] that after searching the scriptures, the Bereans dissembled in what they believed?




MORGANITE



:)

Morganite,

Dissembled? Did they make a false show of what they believed? Did they disguise it? If this is what you meant to ask, the answer is no, I do not believe the Bereans dissembled in what they believed. I think they searched the scriptures and found Paul's teaching to be true. They did not accept blindly. I believe that once they searched the scriptures and found it to be true that they were forthright in their beliefs. Of course no one can be sure, but it seems highly likely since they are praised for their deligence in searching the scriptures in Acts 17.

Phil

[Morganite]

Morganite,

Dunno. The translation into English is YHWH, which, without vowels, in not pronouncable. Could be Yahweh (which I use even though I am not sure of how accurate it is). Could be Yahoweh. I really don't know. However, I know it's not Jehovah for the Hebrew letters do not have the sounds of JHVH, they have the sounds of YHWH. Beyond that no one is certain.

Now, so that my question to Chris might not be taken wrongly, I have no problem with people using the name "Jehovah" to refer to the one true God. I understand Who they mean. Personally, I use Yahweh because it is, by virtue of the sounds we know are in the Name, closer to the true name than Jehovah. My point wasn't concerning the name of God, but rather that JW's accept forced indoctrination without so much as a question. If they do question they keep it to themselves for fear of being labled unfaithful.

Phil

Phil, I thought you were going to tell me something exciting :).

Saying Yahoweh or Yahoveh (Shephardic and Askenazi pronounce differently), is no better or different in essence than saying Jehovah, since all three are possibly wrong.

Jehovah has been accepted among English speaking Christians for a very long time.

I have a Hebrew lexicon attached to my scriptures disc, and it reads OT renderings of Jehovah (AV) as: Yhovah, suggesting that it is vocalised as 'yeh-ho-vaw.'

It might be more accurate, if accuracy is the point, simply to express the consonants as they appear in the texts without any vowel pointing. 'yod he vav hey', or 'yod hey waw hey' depending on whether you follow the Shephardic or Ashkenazi rules of pronunciation?

I don't know either.


MORGANITE




:)

[phildebenham]

Phil, I thought you were going to tell me something exciting :).

Saying Yahoweh or Yahoveh (Shephardic and Askenazi pronounce differently), is no better or different in essence than saying Jehovah, since all three are possibly wrong.

Jehovah has been accepted among English speaking Christians fo a very long time.

I have a Hebrew lexicon attached to my scriptures disc, and it reads OT renderings of Jehovah (AV) as: Yhovah, suggesting that it is vocalised as 'yeh-ho-vaw.'

It might be more accurate, if accuracy is the point, simply to express the consonants as they appear in the texts without any vowel pointing. 'yod he vav hey', or 'yod hey waw hey' depending on whether you follow the Shephardic or Ashkenazi rules of pronounciation?

I dunno either.


MORGANITE




:)

I believe you have a valid point. Using the tetragammaton would certainly be more honest. Turning the tetragammaton into a word which might be right and saying "this is the name of God" (ever so emphatically in the case of the WTBTS) is just plain wrong. I would be akin to deciding my name is Pihola because you know the consonants PHL, but don't know the vowels. Personally, I'd rather not be called Pihola. I wonder if God feels the same way?

Phil

[speedball1]

Speedball, can't you find in two thousand years any Christians who have done any good? Why focus on those whose erratic behavior is obvious?
Who is controlling my mind?
MORGANITE :)

I'd love to extol the virtues. But the evil and death and destruction that Christianity has done over the ages far and away overshadow th good that was done. There have been more wars fought over religion then were ever fought over territory. The crusades, the inquisition, The Children's Crusade, led by a mad monk in which 150,000 children perished before they even reached the coast to name a few. Hell! Bush has us in the middle of a religious war over in Iraq even as we speak.
In case you forgot, there was once a time when Christianity ruled the world.
History will forever call that time, "The Dark Ages".
As for who's controlling your mind? If you believe the Bible's the Word of God and can't be questioned and that the "miracles" can't be brought under skeptical analysis and discredited then your faith /religion's controlling your mind. When you lose the ability to question you have lost the ability to control your own mind. "God said it! I believe it! And that settles it!!
Why do you think the words, "Freethinker" or "Rationalist",(of which I count myself as one) are such dirty words in the Christian lexicon? It's because we question, we analyze using logic and rational thought rather accept on faith and belief. And I'm sorry Sport! But faith and belief are not, and can never be, knowledge. Just a few observations from a Freethinker.