[ETWolverine]

I had a conversation this weekend with Shai Goldstein, the Executive Director of the New Jersey Immigration Policy Network (NJIPN), a liberal immigration-policy organization in New Jersey, regarding illegal immigration. Shai and I are friends despite the fact that he's a lib and I'm, well... I'm not. I love him like a brother, and his family and mine are really close (as in 3 houses apart from each other). Our kids play together and Shai and I, and my wife and his, are really great friends. DESPITE the fact that I think he's wrong on a lot of issues.

Shai made a comment this weekend that I couldn't refute because I didn't have the details in front of me. He stated that illegal immigration is not, in and of itself, a crime. He stated that current immigration law makes illegal immigration a CIVIL violation, not a criminal one. My understanding is that the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965 made illegal immigration a criminal offense, but he said that it does not. That, he claims, is the reson that illegal immigrants are "detained" rather than "incarcerated". Detention is a civil action, while incarceration is a criminal law action. Again, I disagree with that statement, but I don't have the facts to back it up.

Anyone have any opinions on his statement? Does the INA of 1965 make illegal immigration a civil or a criminal offense? Or is there some other legislation that makes illegal immigration a criminal offense.

Elliot

[Dark_crow]

I had a conversation this weekend with Shai Goldstein, the Executive Director of the New Jersey Immigration Policy Network (NJIPN), a liberal immigration-policy organization in New Jersey, regarding illegal immigration. Shai and I are friends despite the fact that he's a lib and I'm, well... I'm not. I love him like a brother, and his family and mine are really close (as in 3 houses apart from each other). Our kids play together and Shai and I, and my wife and his, are really great friends. DESPITE the fact that I think he's wrong on a lot of issues.

Shai made a comment this weekend that I couldn't refute because I didn't have the details in front of me. He stated that illegal immigration is not, in and of itself, a crime. He stated that current immigration law makes illegal immigration a CIVIL violation, not a criminal one. My understanding is that the Immigration and Naturalization Act of 1965 made illegal immigration a criminal offense, but he said that it does not. That, he claims, is the reson that illegal immigrants are "detained" rather than "incarcerated". Detention is a civil action, while incarceration is a criminal law action. Again, I disagree with that statement, but I don't have the facts to back it up.

Anyone have any opinions on his statement? Does the INA of 1965 make illegal immigration a civil or a criminal offense? Or is there some other legislation that makes illegal immigration a criminal offense.

Elliot

FindLaw for Legal Professionals - Case Law, Federal and State Resources, Forms, and Code

[tomder55]

Elliot

He may be on to something if you listen to the courts. Recently a Ks. Appeals court made a ruling that although it is illegal to enter the country without the proper documents and permissions, it is not necessarily illegal to be in the country. They based it on their interpretation of US law.

96613 -- State v. Martinez -- McAnany -- Kansas Court of Appeals

The opinion says :

"While Congress has criminalized the illegal entry into this country, it has not made the continued presence of an illegal alien in the United States a crime unless the illegal alien has previously been deported,"

They also cite a 1958 decision ;US v Cores FindLaw for Legal Professionals - Case Law, Federal and State Resources, Forms, and Code

laws regarding illegal entry into the country "are not continuing ones, as 'entry' is limited to a particular locality and hardly suggests continuity."

The sophistry of the criminal code continues. Your friend finds such nuance in the language of the law because the same people who write the laws intends the ambiguity to exist. That way they can stump and say "see ..... we got tough on immigration ! " . Yes it is illegal to cross the border without proper documentation but according to the ruling;and I assume it was based on an interpretation of existing law , once in the country being here without proper papers is a civil violation .

Edit :


Here is a news article link to the ruling

www.kansascity.com | 08/23/2007 | Appeals panel overturns illegal immigrant’s sentence

[nicespringgirl]

ET,
Is that safe to post the conversation between Goldstein and you here on AMHD?
I have something to say about this post, but I am a little bit intimidated...

[ETWolverine]

NSG,

Well, I don't mind it at all, and since Shai makes public statements on immigration policy all the time as part of his job, and is well known in NJ political circles, I doubt that he would mind. So go for it.

Elliot

[ETWolverine]

DC,

According to the link you posted:

1) attempting to bring an illegal alien to the USA,
2) movement an illegal alien within the USA,
3) harboring of an illegal alien within the USA,
4) inducing an illegal alien to come to the USA in violation of law,
5) aiding or abetting or conspiracy to ommitt any of the above acts,

Are all criminal acts punishable by fine and/or up to 10 years of jail time. I would assume that if the alien in question is part of the planning process and commissions of these acts, he too would be subject to these criminal penalties.

Elliot

[nicespringgirl]

Okay, my concern is about "ID Theft".
Millions of undocumented workers are someone else's documents. To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often "borrow" one.
Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Americans are right now sharing their identities with immigrants and don't know it.
Original ID holder can be denied unemployment because records showed he or she had a job. That is not a victmless crime. It is a crime!

[ETWolverine]

NSG,

You make a good point, and I'm sure that at least some illegals are using stolen identities.

However, for the most part, they are using forged documents that have fake Tax ID/SS numbers that don't belong to anyone. At the end of the year, the government will send the employers of these illegal aliens a notice saying that the SS# of the illegal alien doesn't correspond to any numbers in their files, and could they please make the appropriate check and change. The employer will simply ignore this notice, ontinue to "pay taxes" for the illegal alien, and business goes on as usual. Unless the employer is VERY unlucky, he can go for years paying taxes for employees he knows are illegal and that have SSNs that he knows are fake without having to take any sort of action at all. In the few cases where he does have to take action, he tells the government that he got rid of that employee "months ago" when he "found out" that the employee was illegal. Meanwhile, the employee is still on the books, but under another fake SSN, and the process of notification and lack of action begins again.

So what's happening isn't so much a case of ID theft, though that is undoubtedly an issue. In more cases the illegals are simply using fake SSN #s, with the tacit approval of the employers, and with the government not taking any action until much too late. The government is simply unable to take timely action for anything, and the illegals and their employers use that to their advantage.

Elliot

[Dark_crow]

DC,

According to the link you posted:

1) attempting to bring an illegal alien to the USA,
2) movement an illegal alien within the USA,
3) harboring of an illegal alien within the USA,
4) inducing an illegal alien to come to the USA in violation of law,
5) aiding or abetting or conspiracy to ommitt any of the above acts,

are all criminal acts punishable by fine and/or up to 10 years of jail time. I would assume that if the alien in question is part of the planning process and comissions of these acts, he too would be subject to these criminal penalties.

Elliot

Whatever the case, there is something inherently wrong with the concept of regulating immigration by not regulating it completely. That sounds a lot like a contradiction in purpose to me.

The most interesting part about the policy is the answer to the question, “Why”. It is obvious that our government is purposefully and flagrantly not regulating immigration; it is unquestionably a violation of the oath of office for every member of congress who does not speak against this crime- a crime against the people of the Untied States.

[ETWolverine]

Whatever the case, there is something inherently wrong with the concept of regulating immigration by not regulating it completely. That sounds a lot like a contradiction in purpose to me.

The most interesting part about the policy is the answer to the question, “Why”. It is obvious that our government is purposefully and flagrantly not regulating immigration; it is unquestionably a violation of the oath of office for every member of congress who does not speak against this crime- a crime against the people of the Untied States.

I agree with you on this point 100%. Whether you are for or against immigration enforcement, the government's half-and-half approach doesn't work, sends mixed signals, and actually makes the problem worse from both points of view. Any government official (elected or appointed) who does not enfoce the laws of the United States that are under his/her responsibility to enforce is breaking faith with the people of the United States.

Elliot

[excon]

a violation of the oath of office for every member of congress who does not speak against this crime- a crime against the people of the Untied States.

Hello again, DC:

Hold on, Podner. Let's not get your britches in an uproar. It's a crime... But, not against anybody I know - certainly not ME. Most of 'em just want to blow your leaves. I'm not too threatened by leaf blowers.

excon

[Dark_crow]

Hello again, DC:

Hold on, Podner. Let's not get your britches in an uproar. It's a crime....... But, not against anybody I know - certainly not ME. Most of 'em just wanna blow your leaves. I'm not too threatened by leaf blowers.

excon

Always good to hear another point of view, but ignorance and leafblowers are not relavant, Exon.

Just as ignorance of a Law provides no protection, so it is that ignorance of a crime provides no protection.

By introducing ignorance, and leaf blowing you are introducing the fallacy of denying the correlative i.e. where an attempt is made to introduce another option into a true correlative.

That is, that America has an immigration policy: a truth.

America is not requiring compliance to its immigration policy by everyone: a truth.

Therefore some government officials are not fulfilling their oath of office; hence, betrayal a the least, a crime at worst
:D

P.S. Shai Goldstein, by the way, has committed the same fallacy by introducing the fact, if it is, that entering the US by other than through immigration policy is not a crime.

[nicespringgirl]

I am also intimidated by everyone's pics here.
You guys are either criminal in jail ,muscular alien,or wild animals...

[ETWolverine]

Trust me, NSG, you don't really want to see my picture. That's why I use a comic book character as my avatar. (And Wolverine is not an alien, he's a mutant.)

You, on the other hand, are very photogenic.

Elliot

[excon]

Hello again, DC:

Well, if you're talking about the CRIME that congress perpetrates on US, then I agree wholeheartedly with you.

However, I can think of much BIGGER crimes they're committing than just letting a few leaf blowers sneak in.

excon

[CaptainRich]

Okay, my concern is about "ID Theft".
Millions of undocumented workers are someone else's documents. To get a job, illegal immigrants need a Social Security number, and they often "borrow" one.
Thousands, perhaps hundreds of thousands of Americans are right now sharing their identities with immigrants and don't know it.
Original ID holder can be denied unemployment because records showed he or she had a job. That is not a victmless crime. It is a crime!

Identity theft can have an effect on more than just the individual. Employers can be sited and forced to explain why they employ individuals misconstrued as illegals: If a person that has stolen another's identity commits a crime, and that "identity" shows that the real person works at that company, valuable time and resources can be tied up defending a ruse. More qualified and trained immigration examiners are desperately needed.

[nicespringgirl]

Another thing is that illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. 1/3 of the US prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, over 1/3 of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

[CaptainRich]

Another thing is that illegal aliens are NOT necessarily coming here to work. 1/3 of the US prison population is now comprised of non-citizens. Plus, over 1/3 of illegal aliens are on welfare. So, for a good proportion of these people, the American dream is crime and welfare, not coming here to work.

Very astute observation.

Even though temporary, the choice of illegal and/or criminal activity provides quick, tax-free cash without the need to apply or qualify.

Being incarcerated here must be better than life on the outside there...

[excon]

Hello nice girl:

There's the numbers, and then there's the spin on what the numbers mean. You're spinning.

There's 300 million of us. 50 million of us are illegal. That's 20%. If that's the number of illegal's in jail (and it is), that means they commit NO MORE crime than citizens do. Same thing with welfare.

The problem is the right wing spin machine. It's been going on forever. Look around. If you see a problem, it's the Mexicans fault, it's the blacks fault, it's the Jews fault.

They do a good job too, cause you people buy into it. Me?? Nahhh. I'm no bigot. These people are no different than you and me.

excon

PS> (edited) Before I'm misunderstood, let me be clear. I don't support illegal immigration. The problem, however, is with YOUR GOVERNMENT – NOT the leaf blowers.

[CaptainRich]

The problem, however, is with YOUR GOVERNMENT – NOT the leaf blowers.

Alleging bigotry isn't a solution either.

I don't consider myself a bigot, but prison (incarceration) demographics are what they are. There is definitely a cross-section of peoples. But numbers of national origin doesn't address the causation of incarceration: why are they behind bars?

And you last statement seems unclear. The gov't isn't inviting anyone to immigrate illegally. Granted, not enough is being done about one issue to then complain about the resulting implications. I do feel the government is half-stepping when it comes to not only immigration reform but also border "security".

And you seem to have your own jaundice view on immigrants: referring to them as dishwashers and lawn help, when they may well be highly educated and desired, or uneducated and unemployable. I'm sure you'll pounce on this...