[MJ1]

Not sure if this is a clue on what is going on.
But in the morning the voltage always measures around .50 of a volt, and then by 3:00PM, it will go up to 1.2 - 1.5 volts.

[KISS]

You effectively have this "ground loops" Ground loop (electricity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)

Occurring on a terrestrial scale.

Typical Soil Characteristics of Various Terrains

You have to break the loop or make the distance smaller. Longer distance means greater resistance, which means higher difference in potential.

In the morning the ground (overall) will be damper, hence lower resistance and lower voltage.

Does anybody else share your transformer?

You have to break that loop, Turning off the breaker will not do it. Severing one of the neutral to ground bonds will break the loop. Protection just needs to be re-thought. Alternatively, you can move the power transformer closer.

[MJ1]

So you are saying, we may not be able to get the power company to move a transformer, as we share it with one other house. But to revisit our protection (blocking capabilities) of outside sources of voltage.

[MJ1]

Also, does your potential solution still hold true, if we had the power company, shut the power off completely to our house and neighbors house, from the transformer? Because when they did that, thee was still voltage present.

[KISS]

MJ1:

You make things really interesting.

If power was hut off at the primary and you still had a significant voltage, then removing the neutral bond at the transformer would not work.

I do believe that the primary sources of leakage currents are:

1. The neutral bond at the transformer. In this case the voltage would change with neutral current imbalance. Neutral current and leakage voltage could both be measured. Soil conditions at the time would also impact the results. Neutral current can be measured with a clamp on meter.

2. The earth's surface itself. This is probably difficult to fix. Two possible fixes, I think, exist.
1. Make sure all ground rods (transformer, house) depth is below the water table. This could be 12' or so. This would get the lowest value of ground rod resistance and would be better than what the power company says is "good enough".
2. Putting an eqipotential grid in the concrete when it was poured as per NEC section 680. It may also mean that you need to guarantee everything is grounded. Handrails etc.
Suppose for a moment, that you sunk a ground rod (below water table) near the pool and temporarily attached the items which were giving shocks to this ground rod. Would the voltage go away? In theory it could.

3. There are at least two sources of voltage.
1. Cable TV. This uses a grounded conductor and it is also grounded at the house. It should be grounded to the same point as the electrical service. It may be grounded elsewhere just prior to entering the house. This could be disconneted to see if the situation improves.
2. Telephone is also grounded on the telco side of the NID. This ground should also be at the service entrance ground. The only reason that telephone would contribute is if there was a failure of a protection device.


You can view section 680 of the 2008 NEC code about swimming pools here

NFPA 70: National Electrical Code®

They recommend an eqipotential grid installed in the concrete.

Concrete does have resistivity and it's resitivity can be lowered by use of an equipotential grid.

http://www.dot.ca.gov/hq/esc/geotech...tomography.pdf

EDIT:

Also see: http://www.kilowattclassroom.com/Arc...estArticle.pdf

[MJ1]

"KISS" , I do my best! BTW we have satellite, not cable.
I did a little test yesterday.
Here are the facts:
1. Ran a copper ground from the pool motor (which was already grounded), to the house ground by the meter. No difference in voltage.
2. Then I ran a copper ground to one of the bolts securing the hand rail to the concrete. The AC voltage immediately dropped to .10 volts from 1.3 volts. I checked it by putting the black meter contact on the bolt, and the red meter contact in the water. Then I checked the voltage by moving the black meter contact to the wet concrete, and the voltage was reading 1.3 volts that way. Thoughts?

[KISS]

Yea. Try this test for the fun of it.

First, determine the large loads that are connected to every other breaker. Say a hair dryer, portable heater, Microwave, electric fry pan. They are significant loads. You MUST use them on circuits that are in odd or even breaker spaces. See if the voltage goes up.`

Ask the power company whether they could drive ground rods at the meter and transformer that reach the water table in your area and have the resistance measured.

You may have a fix. Try to see if the neutral current changes the value.

Cement can be cut and the ground wires added.

[scaredswimmer]

My parents have same shock problem in there pool. Phone, utility, and electrcal companies have come out and cut power. There is still a charge in the pool. I don't think any of them really investigated it, each just figured it wasn't there problem. Also, a tingling sensation is felt when standing on wet concrete touching the water valve. The pool separated from the concrete by a wooden deck. My brother lives 1500' away separated by a pond and woods and gets the same sensation when standing on wet concrete and touch the water valve. I haven't heard anyone say whether this is dangerous or just a nuisance. Is it serious? Should we be swimming?

[MJ1]

Is the pool above ground or in ground? Vinyl Liner?
When you say water valve, do you mean the spigot out of the side of the house?

[scaredswimmer]

Yes, the spigot. The pool in on a hill. So, part ot the pool is underground, and part is above ground.

[scaredswimmer]

... with a vinyl liner.

[scaredswimmer]

I have been reading about stray voltage and uncontrolled electrical currents coming from the earth. Anyone heard of or know anything about that?

[KISS]

An interesting read:

http://www.electrical-installation.s...stribution.pdf

It may help answer your question.

[KISS]

I came across this article:

http://www.neetrac.gatech.edu/public..._Lane_2007.pdf

[benaround]

First, a ground rod will not help this situation.

Second, for those of you getting shocked while leaving the pool and stepping on the

Concrete apron around the pool, you need to have an 'Equipotential Bonding Grid ' as

Outlined in the NEC Article 680.26. What is happening is the concrete apron is at a

Different potential than the rest of the pool area, an EBGrid will make the potential the

Same. If the whole area around the pool had a voltage on it, as long as the potential

Difference is the same You will not get a shock.

Third, there are stray voltages everywhere, and they will continue to be there, BONDING

Not GROUNDING will cure your ills.

[tkrussell]

Going through this analysis, it seems like there are two options:
1) Remove ground to neutral bond at the transformer
2) Move transformer closer to the main panel.

IF the ground-neutral bond is removed, then whole house surge supression should be provided through a separate ground rod.

OK electricians, I better not be the only one that has an issue with all three of these suggestions, esp #1 and #3.

#2 will do nothing but incur unnecessary cost, for nothing, other than raise the AIC rating at the panel due to the lower impedance of shorter feeder cables.

Kiss, your off base on these ideas.

[benaround]

OK electricians, I better not be the only one that has an issue with all three of these suggestions, esp #1 and #3.

#2 will do nothing but incur unnecessary cost, for nothing, other than raise the AIC rating at the panel due to the lower impedance of shorter feeder cables.

I agree with you tkrussell, those suggestions should not be given and by all means,

NOT FOLLOWED.

[beenshocked]

July 20, 2006 was a perfectly gorgeous day so my daughter and I went to the pool at a very dear friend’s home, as we do many days in the summertime. As I stepped into the pool and took hold of the handle, my left hand grabbed hold and I couldn't let go. It was charged with electricity. She was already in the pool but had not touched anything metal upon entering the water. She heard me scream and thought that I had fallen. The fear in her eyes as she turned and looked at me was terrible because I knew there was nothing that I could do to keep her from coming to me. She, of course, tried to get to me to help. When she got close to the handle and felt the electricity, she tried to get away but it actually drew her to it and she could not get loose either.
As I lay there being electrocuted all I could think of was that I was going to die from electric shock and my daughter was going to witness it happening. I was completely unaware that she was actually under the water being, not only shocked, but fiercely thrown around by the current.
I cried out "Please God Save Me" and instantly my hand came loose from the handle. I know God answered my cry because everything that we have been told since that day lets us know that once you are locked to something by that much voltage when you're in water, you don't get loose. My daughter said she knew that we were both dying and that she was praying constantly for God to save her Mama. What an unselfish prayer! God pulled her out just as He did me! She looked like she had been beaten when she got out of the water ---bruises and scrapes above her left knee, her right elbow scraped, her back on the left side bruised, and her right shoulder felt like it was dislocated. She was attached to the handle in the pool by her right hand.
We both went to the emergency room and they checked our pulse rates, blood pressure, and EKG’s on both of us. The entire staff was simply amazed that we survived this type of electric shock, much less that we were actually both perfectly normal (or as normal as we've ever been). The doctor said that her shoulder was not dislocated, but that it could be rotator cuff problems that we might have to check out if it continued to hurt her over the next few days, but that hopefully it was just really sore from being thrown around so much against the electric current. She really started to be sore all over her back for the next several days. My only symptom was my legs. They cramped up tight immediately and stayed pretty tight until late that night, but were much better by bedtime. It was just in March that my daughter got hit in the head with a discus at track practice and now has 6 metal plates in her head. It’s even more amazing to know that God brought her through yet another near death experience in less than 4 months.
The problem turned out to be that the underground wire running to the pump had lost its protective coating and it was actually charging the water as it went through the pump and then being grounded through the handle at the steps.
We both had to go for massages often to try to massage out the kinks. I also went for chiropractic adjustments to relieve some of the aches.
July 2, 2009 It has now been almost three years since this experience and we are still both having unusual things happen to our bodies. Sometimes it's like we're getting really powerful bee stings at different points on our bodies. We also still need the massage and chiropractic help. And, of course, it is still a very emotional thing. I have never posted anything about this experience and am only doing so now to try to prevent this from ever happening to anyone else. At the time that we were shocked, I could not even find anything on the computer that sounded remotely similar to what we experienced and still haven't to this day.

PLEASE PLEASE BE CAUTIOUS IF YOU HAVE ANY ELECTRIC SHOCK SENSATIONS AROUND YOUR POOL. THIS COULD HAVE BEEN A DEADLY EXPERIENCE FOR ME AND MY PRECIOUS DAUGHTER. DON'T LET IT HAPPEN TO YOUR FAMILY AND FRIENDS.

[KISS]

Nice post. I had an non water experience similar to yours when I was 16 or so doing body work on my car barefoot, shirtless, frayed extension cord and no one was home.

The extension cord got caught between my toes and I could not let go for the life of me. GFCI's and double-insulated didn't exist back then. I decided to scream for the heck of it and was able to let go.

Yep, scary. Thanks for sharing.

[Beckman Electric]

I wish I would have seen your question sooner. I am Dave Beckman from Beckman Electric in Orange County Ca. I have spent 30 years in the swimming pool electrical industry. I have run across this problem several times and the problem USUALLY is that the neutral conductor that feeds your home in not properly connected to the transformer supplying power to the home. Either it is disconnected completely or there is significant resistance. The current completes the circuit to ground through the swimming pool since it is a great grounding conductor. I have seen service drops that come through trees and have a broken neutral conductor cause this problem. I have seen service panels that are improperly wired from the factory where there is no conductor between the neutral conductor from the utility and the neutral buss where the homes neutral wires are connected. The metal enclosure of the service panel is the conductor therefore some of the current returns to the transformer through the pool. If there is an underground feed to the house the neutral wire could be damaged or just have a bad connection. This information will help an electrician find the problem in a very short time. Otherwise someone could be looking for hours in the wrong place. A good test to find out if this could be your problem is to use a digital multimeter as you did before and you will notice the voltage increase as more 120 volt electrical devices are turned on in the home. If you turn on 240 volt loads like possibly the pool pump you will see no difference in the voltage. You need to fix this problem as soon as possible.