[phildebenham]

Chris,

It is painfully obvious to me that while you advocate having an open mind you keep yours quite closed. The scripture clearly states that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are God (the one God). You discard it because you cannot understand it. To you it is not "logical." You reject the doctrine of the trinity because it is not logical, not because it is not in scripture.

Once again you accuse me of attacking "JW's." This time I am offended by the accusation. I do not attack JW's. I do not attack Mormons. I do challenge many of the doctrines of both of these groups (and quite a number of other groups as well). That is not an attack on anyone, Chris. It is a defense of the scripture.

You have every right to present your beliefs here, Chris (though I personally wish you were up front with the post instead of presenting your belief through the back door, so to speak). I have every right to respond to such beliefs (I am sure you agree). In responding I felt it important to discover where that belief came from, hence I revealed your adherence to the WTBTS. I don't think that is an attack, Chris, just a revelation of the source of the belief.

Since you have stated that you don't have any desire to discuss the merits (or lack of merits) of the NWT, and you have no desire to discuss the doctrine of the Trinity, your post presenting your belief that Jesus is not God is only answerable if one agrees with you. I, clearly, do not.

As for my pointing out your background and your groups mistranslation of holy writ not being acceptable in a debate, you are quite mistaken. The reason you have your point of view is quite revelent when debating that point. It is, again, not an attack, but a revelation.

Should you change your mind and want to discuss what the bible says about the Trinity, or why the NWT is or is not a good translation, I am all yours.

Respectfully,

Phil

[chrisl]

though I personally wish you were up front with the post instead of presenting your belief through the back door, so to speak

You are truly disturbing. Are you the Official Thought Policeman on this forum or something? I guess you want everyone to preface their statements on this forum with: "Before I begin, I must disclose that I am a [YOUR FAITH HERE]"

Look, you didn't even bother to check what Bible I used and you just started slinging mud at the NWT for no apparent reason. Have you researched my posts at all?

Again, I ask everyone, is he targeting JWs specifically?

The reason you have your point of view is quite revelent when debating that point.

That is an absolutely ridiculous statement. The truth of any particular statement is not determined by the source. I'd like to see you try to get that standard of truth to fly in a court of law! If you are going to cling to that kind of "logic", nothing constructive can result.

It is, again, not an attack, but a revelation.

Yes, this same kind of "revelation" worked well for McCarthy in the 1950s: "He's a Communist! He has a Communist point of view! What he says is a lie!"

Well, no thanks! I'll take the high ground and just let you accuse. Even Jesus knew when to stay silent before his accusers.

I don't want to banter or name call or any of the other childish things I've experienced on other sites...

:rolleyes:

Chris

[phildebenham]

Chris,

My, but you are persistent aren't you? I tell you once more, and hopefully for the last time, that I do not and have not targeted Jehovah's Witnesses or any other individuals regardless of what group they adhere to. I have not attacked you. I have not slung any mud. I have not been unkind to you. I will not be unkind to you.

I have stated, albeit indirectly, that your assumption that Jesus is God's Son but not God the Son is unbiblical. I have stated, albeit indirectly, that the WTBTS version of the bible supports this doctrine through mistranslation, and that such translation is not based upon the original language or its context, but upon its preconceived doctrine that Jesus is not God. Neither of these statements is a personal attack upon you or anyone else, Chris.

As for a direct answer to you question as to whether we should rely upon the absolute truth of the bible rather than the teachings of man (my paraphrase of your query); we should rely upon God's holy writ. That is what I do, Chris. That is why I know that Yahweh exists in three persons which the scripture describes as Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. I cannot explain that to your satisfaction. I cannot make it seem "logical" to you. Neither can I reject it for God has painstakingly placed it in scripture for all to read.

Again, I am more than willing to discuss in greater detail why the NWT is a very poor translation, and what the scripture says about God's identity, with you or anyone else at any time.

In the mean time I would appreciate it if you would quit accusing me of attacking you. Anyone can clearly see by reading my posts in this thread that it is not the case.

May God richly bless you,

Phil Debenham

[phildebenham]

Response to Matthew 5: 10-12 citing:

Chris,

Matthew 5: 10-12 (NWT)

10 “Happy are those who have been persecuted for righteousness’ sake, since the kingdom of the heavens belongs to them.

11 “Happy are YOU when people reproach YOU and persecute YOU and lyingly say every sort of wicked thing against YOU for my sake.

12 Rejoice and leap for joy, since YOUR reward is great in the heavens; for in that way they persecuted the prophets prior to YOU.

You posted this reference as an accusation of me persecuting you, and lying to you. How so? Do you truly think that my challenging the WTBTS's version of the bible and your belief that Jesus is not God incarnate is persecuting you? Do you really think that is what Jesus was speaking of in these verses?