[Dark_crow]

What is Zionism and how many Zionist are there?

[puhkin]

Well, I'm not a Zionist. But recently as I was travelling through a town not far from my own, I saw a 'Zion Church of Christ' I believe it was.

[ETWolverine]

Zionism is a philosophy in which people believe that G-d has promised the Holy Land (Zion/Jerusalem) to the Jewish people and the desire for the Jewish people to return to that ancient homeland. It is a philosophy dominated by, but not universal to, the Jewish people, though Religious zionists would tend to disagree with that assessment.

There are several forms of Zionism, but most of them can be summed into two groups: Secular Zionists and Religious Zionists.

Secular Zionism is a philosophy that decends from Theodore Herzle, and it is basically the beliefe that the Jewish people should have their own homeland and their own sovereignty. From a certain perspective, it doesn't really matter to the secular zionist WHERE that homeland is, as long as it exists. That is why many early Secular Zionists were willing to settle in Uganada rather than in historical Israel. Secular zionism was, for a long time, the real backbone of the overall zionist movement, but it made a particular point of taking religion out of the equation. "The land is ours because we worked it, we made it fertile, and we have the strength to hold it, and that is all that matters." Secular Zionism was (is?) by far the majority of people who identify themselves as zionists.

Religious Zionism is epitomized by Rabbi Abraham Isaac Hokehen Cook. The philosophy is one of religious/biblical connection to Israel as the land of our fathers. It rejects the idea that any old plot of land will do, as the main reason for attaining the land in the Religious zionist point of view is to be able to follow all the laws of the Torah, and certain laws can only be performed in biblical Israel itself. Whereas secular zionism was the labor backbone of the zionist movement, religious zionism can be seen as the spiritual motivation of the movement. As far as religious zionism is concerned, "The land is ours because G-d prommised it to us, Abraham purchased it, The Great Temple was built there, the Law requires us to be there in order to do all of G-d's commandments, and it is historically, religiously and spiritually our only homeland."

As for how many Zionists there are in the world, that is nearly impossible to answer. There are many people who share the religious zionist philosophy, but refuse to call themselves zionist because they do not wish to associate themselves with secular zionism, which they see as lacking in any sort of moral or religious connection to Judaism. And there are many people who believe in the philosophies of secular zionism but do not wish to associate with the name "zionist" because they feel that the term "Zionist" has been equated with racism too often in the media and in the UN. And there are those who claim to be zionists, but don't agree with any of the philosophies of the Zionist movement. So there is no way to really know the number of Zionists in the world.

Assuming that 90% of Jews are "pro-Israel" in their thinking, and if we define Zionism as "pro-Israel", and since there are roughly 13 millions Jews in the world today, we can assume that there are about 11.7 million zionists ("pro-Israel thinkers") in the world today. But that definition is a stretch, and it ignores any non-Jews who might identify themselves as Zionists.

Again, these are very broad answers, and very incomplete. There's a lot more to it than what I have written here. But it's a good place to start the discussion.

[BABRAM]

It's a complex subject and a good one. I accept Israel has a right to existence on the secular level, but more so according to Torah. Elliot and I had an excellent discussion years ago with another friend and expert on a Judaism board, his name was "Avrom." BTW he was an excellent expert. One of the posts brought up the question of Zionism. I can't remember if it was at answerway or askme, but anyway from what I recall Avrom, respectfully was not in favor of Zionism. I wanted to hear his reasoning since at one time I had waivered on the subject. I really respect the view of non-Zionists, but disagree. I concluded that while we are waiting on Moshiach, that Israel still retains a right of an existing govt homeland.

An argument can be made by religious non-Zionist Jews that the Kenesset is far from pure and in many cases non-religious considering aspects of their decisions made. To make things more complicated the religious groups within Israel that are Zionists, and having influence on parliament members, have various views on the direction of Isreal's future. This is typically a Jewish thing. :) A trait you may say that we have a difficult time coming to agreement without conflicting opinions. There once was three Jews... nevermind. Anyway some point to this fact as a reason Moshiach must come to make it officially Israel. I see it as Israel's right to exist currently having the infrastructure, although imperfect, while waiting for completion later. This is why I'm a Zionist. I also consider since Israel's re-existence, the hardships, and of conquering opposition, as proven alive.




Bobby

[Choux]

I wonder what will happen to Zionism when the surrounding Islamic countries have nuclear weapons that approach weaponry Israel has. That is not an attractive scenario for sellng Israel... location location location.

One Jewish Professor I talked to said that the Jews will not go down quietly like they did when Hitler sent them to the death camps which resulted in the Holocaust. Israel will go down in a blaze of glory should they be attacked.

I understand from statistics that about 80% of Israeli Jews are secular Jews. I can't believe that secular Jews have that great a death wish as Orthodox Jews when it comes to going to their deaths in Israel, but I don't know.

Demographics is against Israel, Muslims have a much higher birth rate and can overrun Israel in about 100 years without war. But, then, Global Warming, who will be in the Middle East when the temperature in the summer months is 140 degrees.

I worry about the Jews not acting in their best interest as a people.

[BABRAM]

I understand from statistics that about 80% of Israeli Jews are secular Jews. I can't believe that secular Jews have that great a death wish as Orthodox Jews when it comes to going to their deaths in Israel, but I don't know.

Secular Jews say the Israeli pledge of Allegiance side by side with pious Jews.

Hatikvah

As long as the Jewish spirit is yearning deep in the heart,

With eyes turned toward the East, looking toward Zion,

Then our hope - the two-thousand-year-old hope - will not be lost:

To be a free people in our land,

The land of Zion and Jerusalem.

Demographics is against Israel, Muslims have a much higher birth rate and can overrun Israel in about 100 years without war. But, then, Global Warming, who will be in the Middle East when the temperature in the summer months is 140 degrees.

I worry about the Jews not acting in their best interest as a people.

Demographics and being in the minority has never forced Israel's hand. They have the Samson syndrome. The IDF is most recognized for it's keen strategy per soldiers available and it goes beyond technology. Global Warming is not an issue.




Bobby