[Tadmen]

Hi,
I will be wiring my basement soon (about 1400sqf) with one family/TV room, a bedroom, an office and a bathroom.
They ran only one 15AMP circuit that currently operates basement lights (8 of them) and 2 GFI outlets. They also put each bedroom upstairs on a separete circuit breaker with a little button on the (I forget what they are called (arch, or something like that)) circuit breakers.
I have 2 free circuit breaker spaces in by panel and can add two 20AMP circuit breakers and run two circuits with 12GA/3 (yellow) wires.
Now my questions are as follows:
Do I need to run a sparate bathroom circuit, or can I use one circuit (let's say, bedroom) and then branch from there for 2 GFI outlets, even though this circuit would be on the ARC or whatever the heck it's called circuit breaker? Or should I just run one circuit to the bedroom only and branch from the office to the bathroom. Or should I just completely separate these.
Because I have only 2 spaces in the circuit panel I would like to avoid adding a subpanel to the basement and instead use the 2 20AMP circuits to wire most of the outlets in the basement and use the existing 15AMP circuit for all the lights in the basement (bedroomlights, bathroom light+exhaust fan, office and TV room lights)
I will be pulling a permit and so I don't want to screw it up. I've done wiring before, passed inspections, etc, but this was 8 years ago and the code changed a bit it seems. Sorry for a bit long question

Thanks

Tad

[labman]

12GA/3 (yellow) wires? What you need for most work is 12-2 with ground. The outer jacket used to come in several colors, although I guess I am seeing some yellow recently. Maybe the latest code has it color coded for UV resistant, and suitable for burial, UF. It will have black, white, and bare to connect to brass, plated, and green screws on the outlet and switches. Light fixtures may have a green wire to go to the bare wire.

It might be easier to crowd in more circuits using half size breakers than tie into older circuits. They are available to fit most boxes. I installed some almost 30 years ago in my house, and no problem. Computers draw little power, but can have problems with other stuff on their circuit. You certainly don't something else tripping the computer's breaker.

[tkrussell]

To comply with code you will need to have a separate 20 amp circuit for the bathroom outlet alone, along with any other lights or fans in the bathroom.

The bedroom wiring must be on an Arc Fault protected circuit. Here you can tap into an exisitng bedroom circuit to use the existing Arc Fault breaker.

Arc Fault circuit breakers are now required to protect all wiring related to a bedroom. These are similar to GFI circuit breakers. They sense when a cable or a cord, for example to a table lamp or a TV, is broken just enough to cause an arc at the break in the wire, and the breaker will trip to prevent the broken wire from arcing enough to cause a fire.

The bedroom must have a hard wired smoke detector located inside the bedroom, along with another detector located somewhere in the remaining basement area. Check with the local code enforcement office. The wiring for the bedroom smoke detector may not need to be on the Arc Fault circuit.

The yellow cable is the outer sheathing that is designed to indicate the cable contains #12 wire. Several years ago, the code required cable manufacturers to color code the cables, white for #14, yellow for # 12, and orange for #10, to help inspectors to see the size wire circuits are wired with, preventing them from pulling wires out of a box to confirm what size wire was used.

Perhaps you can connect the remaining lighting in the basement to the existing basement circuit, and then run a new circuit for the family room and office outlets.

So one new circuit for the bathroom and another for the basement outlets will use up the two breaker slots you have. Use the exisitng bedroom circuit for the new bedroom wiring, this will save you from buying a new Arc Fault breaker, very expensive, and the basement circuit for the remaining lights, this should have you covered.

If you decide to add more circuit breakers, I agree with Labman, you should be able to find "half" size breakers , or otherwise known as "tandem" breakers, for your panel. Most panel manufacturers make some sort of breaker to be able to add more to a panel. The only restriciton is there cannot be more than 42 circuit breakers in any panel.

You will be adding more outlets in the family room and office? The two GFI outlets may not need to be there any longer once the space is converted. GFI outlets are required in unfinished basement areas.

Hope this helps.

[Tadmen]

Thanks for the info. It explains everything.
Now on a similar note:
If I decided to run a subpanel to the basement and then branch from there, would that be a better option?
Maybe I should post it as a new thread. We'll see if I get any answers here.
So if I'll put a new subpanel there and then tun the branch circuits from there here are the questions:
1. Does the brand need to be the same? They used Cutler-Hammer, but if I went with Home Depot they have Square D products.
2. Assuming that I will have those circuits present, what size of a Circuit breaker should I use in the Main Panel to run the cable from there. The circuits will be: 1- 20A Bathroom, 1- 15A ARC Bedroom (outlets+Lights), 1- 15A Office outlets, 2- 15A Familyroom (it's a big room with lots of outlets that I'd like to split in 2 circuits) and then 1- or 2- 15A lights. Which means about 6- 15A circuit Breakers and 1 20A one.
3. What size of a wire to run there 8GA? 6GA?
4. Does the new subpanel reguire a main breaker even though there is a circuit breaker on the main one. And does it need to be a main breaker or maybe a regular circuit breaker to which the incoming 6 or 8GA wire would be attached. Should I then use a single or a doublepole breaker?

All those questions but I'm trying to do it right. Maybe I should hire an electrician to bring the power to the subpanel from above and then I could take it from there...

One last issue. Assuming I don't have a subpanel but went with adding double circuit breakers into a single spaces, I have a question on how do I leave the wires in the main panel or in the outlets I will be connecting to for my original inspection. I know I will have to have all the wires in each new box connected (grounds, proper color coded plastic nuts, etc.) But what do I do with the other end where the wires normally are attached to Circuit Breaker. I don't know if I should connect them there and have the circuit breakers in the OFF position, or just put electrical tape on the ends and have them labeled and not attached. And what about the existing outlets that I will be branching off for the lights for instance. Do I run the wires into the existing boxex and tape the stripped ends and just leave them there until after the inspection and after drywall is done? I can see that subpanel will be a much cleaner way out...

Thanks again, and sorry for the long question.

Tad Menert

[labman]

I would go with any brand of subpanel you find convenient. As for the rest of your questions, you may not get a good answer until tkrussel drops in again. He seems to know his code. Likely it is easier to run one large wire to the subpanel close to the loads, and then short runs for the individual circuits.

[tkrussell]

First of all you mentioned the method I will always recommend," hire an electrician". You are usually allowed to wire your own home, as long as it is a single family home. I spoke with a state inspector on this issue once as to home owners doing their own electric work, his answer was " we cannot stop people from killing themselves". I understood his opinion on the subject, my concern is the innocent people that will reside in a home wire by a do it yourselfer that may be injured, or worse, by a faulty electrical installation. One loose connection can cause a fire.

Now that I am done with my soapbox speech, let's see if I can answer your questions and perhaps convince you this job can be larger and more complicated than you may want to handle. I may give you some information that I may not completely explain, so bear with me, there is a great deal to explain, and I cannot provide all the info in detail here.

I will try to be as brief as possible, but I know I will get wordy, and probably use trade lingo you may not understand. You think your question is long? You isn't seen nothing yet.

1. Unless you are anal about brand names matching, use which ever brand panel you find locally available. All the major brands are equal in comparison, Square D, GE, Bryant, Murray, ITE, and Cutler Hammer, which by the way, is now also Westinghouse. The tan handles are the original CH, not sure if they will be around much longer, since CH has merged with Westinghouse, and now are Westinghouse with a CH brand name. Use whichever you like, all will work fine.
2. The subpanel is a good idea, if you need to run several small circuits any distance. This will also give you a load center for additional circuits later after the basement is finished. Much easier to run the one large cable instead of several small ones, as Labman mentioned. I like the idea of the quantity of circuits you mention. The subpanel feeder will be sized according to the load, not how many branch circuits you will have in it.
Just to help explain how the load is calculated to arrive at a minimum size, residential feeders are calculated at 3 watts per square foot, and at 1500 sq ft, (just to add a cushion above your 1400 sq ft), totals 4500 watts / 240 volts = 18.75 amps.
I would install a 20 circuit panel, which will be rated to handle 100 amps. The feeder can be rated 60 amp. So you can install a #6 copper cable, say, Romex, with 4 wires,black, red, white, and bare ground. You must connect this cable at the main onto a new 2 pole breaker, no larger than a 60 amp.

The subpanel will not need a main in it, you can have one if you like, a 60 amp, but it is not necessary. The critical issue is connecting the ground and neutral correctly, both will connect at the main panel onto the main neutral bar. At the subpanel, the white will connect to the neutral bar, which must be isolated from all the grounds( green or bare wires), and the panel backbox. The bare in the feeder cable must connect to a equipment bar bolted directly to the backbox, and all greens or bare wires from the branch circuit cables must only go to this bar.This connection is very critical for various reasons, primarily for safety.

The remaining wiring must be done properly also, fortunately you did say that if you do the work yourself, you will apply for a permit and have the installation inspected. Hopefully you do the installation correctly and not need to do anything over again.

Some of the brief details you must consider are:
Minimum amount of outlets spaced no more than 12 foot apart.
Maximum amount of wires in each box.
Distance of a hole drilled through a stud from the face of the stud.
Maximum distance of supporting each cable,and from each box.
Minimum amount of length of wire at each box.
All connections and splices located in an accessible box, not hidden or buried.

In general, any new installation cannot be connected and energized until the rough inspection has been done and approved. So you need to install the cables into each box or panel, but do not connect to a breaker until you are completed installed all the switches, outlets, and lights. All the wires at each outlet need to be spliced, grounds and any other splicing done, waiting for the drywall to be done and then connect the devices and plates. Most inspectors will require a final inspection to be sure the system is 100 % complete, energized, and functioning properly.

I think I have addressed most of your questions. If not or if you have more please post them again.

[Tadmen]

Thanks, that was exactly the answer I needed.

Just so you know I completely wired a 2 story cabin/house with a basement in 1999. Main panel, kitchen, 2 baths, 3 bedrooms, living room, etc. etc. a switch for a generator, 24V solar/wind+inverter into 110V. smoke detectors tied together, waterpump, etc. And we've been using it ever since...

I'm not bragging :) but I passed rough-in inspection on the first try. And you're right the length of the cable needed to be right, GFI, etc. Then I passed the final on the first try. The inspector checked every single outlet, tripping GFI switches, etc. THere was one mistake. When I connected one of the kitchen GFI circuits I switched the cables going in and out of the GFI outlet. Only because I lost the label on the wires in that box. A simple thing to fix. So that was why asked here for advice. One thing I did not do there was a subpanel for the basment. The other one was that at that time ARC breaker were not required.

So I needed a little refresh course. I still think I will hire an electrician (depending on how much he/she will quote me for a 30'run of a 6GA cable and a subpanel installed) mainly, because they are more adapt at feeding the cable from the main panel into the basement. The builder placed air ducts along the wall and I just don't see how I could feed a 6GA wire through there. The electrician probably has some tricks in his/her box that I don't know about.

Thanks again it was awsome to get such a detailed reply. I'll keep you posted how it went.

Tad

[kp2171]

labman and tkrussel-

you guys rock. I'd buy you both a drink if you were here... I've learned so much from your inputs.

you're like my amazingly talented, knowledgeable father-in-law, but without the glares and stares when he watches you do anything differently than he would. =)

thank you guys for sharing your knowledge

[tkrussell]

Sure sounds like you know your stuff. Typical behavior for an inspector checking every detail when a homeower does his own work. I am a bit embarrassed to say when an inspector comes to our jobs, if he comes, he usually is more interested in what we wired as to how we wired it.

Just finished a wiring an expansion to a brick manufacturing plant, various phases lasting over a year. Began with relocating a 2000 amp 480volt service, including moving a utility transformer, to allow the new addition to be built, had to figure out how to put in a new 3000 amp service switchboard, outside beyond the new building that did not exist. Then wire the 200 ft kiln, with about 40 motors/fans and 120 control points, back to a PLC. And a 250 amp feed to a robot that picked up and stacked the brick on 20ftx20 ft transport cars. Robot was furnished and installed completely by a German company, complete with a crew of Germans, and only one spoke broken english.And don't forget the deadline. No matter what happnes, it never changes.

The inspector stood and watched the robot, he finally did go on a tour of our work, found a few minor problems, and no, I do not leave some obvious problems so he has something to complain about.

Currently on the downhill of re-wiring a data center, for a large bank, in the top 50. And cannot shut anything off, try pulling rabbits out the hat to do this one.Going in Sunday night with 8 men to do some important cutover work, they gave me two hours to do 20 hours of work. Inspector just comes in and says I am sure everything is fine, see you later.

My point is the contractors get reputations that help in cases like this, he knows the job is done right.

I do not mean to discount any knowledge a do it yourselfer may have, so hard to determine from a question. My take is, great, at least they are asking, but if they are then how much do they know.

With my background as an electrician, contractor, electrical and insurance inspector, I am sworn to try to save lives and property. That is my only purpose here.

If you passed inspection on first try, brag, damn it!

That is not easy to do, even for contractors.

Depending on your location, the cost for the job can run $400.00 to $600.00.

Glad to help, thanks for the kind words.

Good luck, and yes let us know how things work out.

And KP... 12 yr old scotch.. on the rocks... and leave the bottle.

Would be great if Labman is a scotch drinker, so hard to find them.
If not that's OK too. To each his own.

[labman]

Naw, I am strictly a beer drinker switching to wine in cold weather. Ah working with non English speakers. We had a Chinese delegation tour the complex where I managed a little corner. They all spoke enough English to ask questions, but not enough to understand the answers.

[Tadmen]

Well,
Thanks for all the info. Just my 2 cents, after a trip to Ireland, they convinced me there that scotch is just a poor knock-off the Irish whiskey and after trying it I would concur. Tasted much better but maybe it was the company... :) I'm a beer drinker myself. I'm making up for about 44 years of not drinking it, but that's another story...
Now for my question, related to this basement finishing situation. After deciding on the circuits (I described it in my previous posts) my wife says, why not putting there a wet bar with some nice countertops, a small 18" dishwasher, small undercounter fridge, and a bar sink :rolleyes:
Anyway I have the following questions now:
1. When I wire a bar countertop there, should I put 3 or 4 extra circuit, like in the kitchen? (My kitchen has 2 20A circuits for outlets, 1 20A for microwave, 1 15A dishwasher and 20A refrigerator.) That would sound a bit crazy for me.
I thought I would put 1 20A for all outlets in this area (countertop), below countertop. Then I would put another one for a dishwasher 15A. Or should I put 2 20A for outlets above and below countertop and plug the fridge into it afterwards.

Uff, this project is growing like crazy, but I've wired one bedroom already and the office and have an appointment this week with an electrician to bring the subpanel to the basement.

Thanks for your help again

Tad

[tkrussell]

Change orders already? Aren't customers fun? Welcome to my world.

Two outlets on the counter with one 20 circiut is fine. They need to be GFI protected.

You can connect the frig to this circuit, but you do not need to GFI protect the frig. Yo can if you like, some have the opinion to protect it,but if you will store anything that may spoil, you take a risk of losing food.You probably won't, and GFI protecting it is a good advisable. Either way, you should have no problem with passing inspection, the inspector may intimidate you to be sure it is GFI protected and or have a separate circuit, but the code is on your side here.

Remember the code dictates maximums and minimums, installing better than code allows is always good and recommended if the budget allows. If he gives you a directive, ask him to refer to the NEC 2002 edition section 210.52 (B) (1). Check his demeanor before bringing this up, but most inspectors are real people and are open to valid reasons. If the code in force is the 2005 , the reading will be the same ,the section may be different. Not running under 2005 so I need to be careful having it handy, too close and may use it. Not good until it is adopted by state and local authorities.

I still would use a separate 20 amp circuit for the dishwasher, the drying element is bascially an electric oven element and draws quite a bit current.

Many inspectors do have ,as a joke, a sign in their offices. Refers to hog wrestling in mud, goes something like, Inspectors are kind of like hogs, After you wrestle the hog for a while you find out the hog likes it.

Take my word for it, I have tried just about anything in the bar, and Johnnie Walker Black is it for me, dry and smooth, mothers milk I say. Proud irishman here but just not the taste for Jamisons etc. A good Irish friend and a local city electrical inspector had a taste for Jamison, and told me the same thing. I would tease bribe him with some.He would point out it was my turn.He reminded me that it was my turn anyaways to buy a round.

[Tadmen]

Well, I promised to let you know how my basement finish project was going so here I go. Actually I'm not sure if I should post it in a new thread or in this old one. If I don't get any replies I'll try making a new thread since it's been a while...
I had an electrical rough-in inspection today and the good news is I can inulate and cover with drywall.
The bad news is that I need to redo my ground connections since I used copper ground tubing and used a crimping tool that the inspector did not like. I was supposed to use a 4-way crimping tool and I used the same one I used on a house we built in 2000 and it worked well for it there. Go figure :)
I was not home at the time of the inspection (have to work, after all) but my son said the inspector suggested using steel tubing for crimping with my tool. I'm going to call him tomorrow morning (he's only accessible early for a shor period of time) and get more details. I wonder if I could use regular yellow/rede, etc wire nuts on ground connectors instead of trying to crimp them again. I'm just ready to give up on this whole idea of crimping...
Anyway. Two steps, well I take it back, huge 10 steps forward, and a small step back. Just need a short talk with the inspector and an afternoon to fix the problems. Once this is past me the final should be a breeze... knock on wood

Thanks for your help, guys

Tad

[tkrussell]

Crimping is not very common any longer, but is still acceptable. The two point crimp is no loger acceptabel and the four point takes its place.

Inspector suggested steel tubing? Only if he can recommend steel tubing that is intended for the purpose and it is UL listed. Can you guess that it does not exist?

Steel also would not be allowed to crimp wires since it is a dis-similar metal.

The most well known brand of crimp is Buchanan, as shown below. There are several other manufacturers.

Another method is belowItem ID: 2006SName: Splice Cap Crimp Terminal (Box of 100)Features: For #18 to #10 AWG wire
Minimun 2 #18 AWG
Maximum 4 #12 AWG
Use Buchanan C24 Crimp Tool
Designed for fast, permanent, pressure-type connections
UL Listed and CSA Certified
Zinc-plated or copper sleeves resist corrosion
Buchanan Four-Way Crimp Tool

• Patented design ensures even compression and reliable connections
• Spring loaded, cam-actuated plungers
• Fingertip adjustment for different connector sizes

Another method is shown below:

30-092

Greenie® 92® Grounding Connector (Box of 100) Designed for grounding and bonding
Accepts 2 #14 to 3 #12 w/1 #14 AWG wire combinations
Rated for 600 Volt maximum


Both are found at Ideal Industries website and are available in most supply houses.


And yes, regular wire nuts of any brand are acceptable.

[labman]

It is better to dig up the old thread in a case like this. That way we can refer back to it. Also helps somebody looking back at old posts for their answer. Either way, your post falls in its time slot in both New Posts which I watch and Electrical and Lighting which tkrussel may watch. The only area I really know a lot about is dogs, but there are several other areas that don't have anybody posting strong answers that I can help with. Electrical was that way until tk came.

[Tadmen]

I thought I did, sort of... keep it within the old thread but let me repeat a few things
All this started when I asked some questions about my basement wiring and I originally wanted to do it on two existing circuits :D
Good thing I didn't. It turned out to be a 9 circuit job, if I remember correctly. I did everything myself with an exception of connecting the wire between my subpanel in the basement and my panel in the garage which was done by an electrician who did it as a sort of a favor (I still paid him but since I put the panel and the breakers in etc. and he had only to feed the main wire, etc. it cost me a mere $185.00)
I have following circuits: 15AMP (1-Bedroom, 1-Office, 2-Family room outlets(big) split in 2, 1-Lights, 1-Outlets and lights in hallway and utility room; 20AMP (1-Bathroom, 2-Wetbar (one for a small refrigerator in it and another one for a small dishwasher, then going to GFI outlets) Added 2 Smoke detector boxes in the basement to be wired to the existing house circuit. BTW, Maybe you could tell me how much I saved by doing all that myself so I can tell my wife we can now afford this plasma TV :)
Anyway, this was to remind you about the scope of the project. I got lots of help here on designing what kind of circuits to use in different areas.
So the only thing I have to change now is the crimping of the ground wires. But I just got off the phone talking with the inspector and he said that the simplest way for me to use would be to first cut carefully along the copper sleeves and to use the green wire nuts (which I just cannot master :rolleyes: I tried to use them before and I can never get a good tight grip with that extra wire sticking out through the top). I told him that and he laughed and said that regular wire nuts will be fine so I am set. And then he said something that made my day. He said that I should be proud because I really did a good job there. It was an honest mistake, he said and happens relatively often. Home Depot here sells the copper sleeves for the ground wires he said but they do not carry the proper tool because it's so expensive so a lot of people do the same mistake I did.
I feel better now. I should be able to have it fixed sometime next week or so and maybe in a week or two call for re-inspection. Since I can insulate and cover with drywall it did not set me back as far as the timeline goes so I'm OK.

Thanks again for your help

I'll keep you posted