[spiffyness101]

Honestly....I'd say that a god that never changes is scarier than science that changes all the time. Things that never change are unnatural. There is nothing in this world that over time has not changed - today's mountain is tomorrow's riverbed.

How is the instability of science less scary compared to God who never changes.. Sure change can be good and helpful but it can also be the complete opposite...

[excon]

Hello spiffy:

If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.

excon

[Thesecretsociety]

What I don't understand, is why you believe god exists. Ok....God created everything in the world, but who created God? What proof do we have? And if God loves us so much, then why are all these terrible things still happening? I think religion is a good thing, keeps your morals and values straight, but I've never had and never will have faith.

The proof we have is in the scriptures which are proven to be real everyday. God doesn't have a creator, for God is outside of time. Of course we do not understand that because of our logic. The greeks taught everyone what we know now and because of that we do not understand any of that. And God does love us so much, I love it when people ask that question. God isn't a teddy bear! People need to learn that, the bible even says itself that we will face judgement for our actions and not only at the end of times. God wasn't a teddy bear helping and fixing, as it is even said Let Vengeance be his. And some things that are bad are done for the greater good. Imagine as a parent your child steals something insignificant, are you going to punish him? Or are you going to say, I forgive you, just don't do that. And if you do that once, will you do that the second time? God doesn't sit there thinking "How can i be the nicest person today". He is kind , he is strong, he is merciful , but he is also not something to take lightly. If you know anything about in the old days, many people also followed God out of FEAR! Not of people, not of society, but out of fear of his wrath. Now a days people thing that God is a teddy bear and a kind loving one. But God is no fairy tale, nothing is happily ever after. He is nothing to take lightly, for he is a strong forceful God as well. He doesn't sit there and be the kindest in the world. And to all people who say that science is proven right, let me say that is why there is no perfect science, it isn't right 100% at all. And to all those saying the bible is wrong, show me one part that is wrong in it.

[spiffyness101]

Hello spiffy:

If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.

That is not what I am saying at all. What I AM saying is that they both combine together very well. Christians use a lol of science to help explain many things. What am I to be convinced of? That they aren't and are completely separate and different and don't belong together in any way or form?

I know what science is, granted I may not know everything there is to know about it but who really does know everything possible(as of on this Earth)? I do, however, know enough to decipher on my own what I believe and hold to be true.

[jillianleab]

The proof we have is in the scriptures which are proven to be real everyday. God doesnt have a creator, for God is outside of time. Of course we do not understand that because of our logic. The greeks taught everyone what we know now and because of that we do not understand any of that. And God does love us so much, I love it when people ask that question. God isnt a teddy bear! People need to learn that, the bible even says itself that we will face judgement for our actions and not only at the end of times. God wasnt a teddy bear helping and fixing, as it is even said Let Vengence be his. And some things that are bad are done for the greater good. Imagine as a parent your child steals something insignificant, are you going to punish him? Or are you going to say, I forgive you, just dont do that. And if you do that once, will you do that the second time? God doesnt sit there thinking "How can i be the nicest person today". He is kind , he is strong, he is merciful , but he is also not something to take lightly. If you know anything about in the old days, many people also followed God out of FEAR! Not of people, not of society, but out of fear of his wrath. Now a days people thing that God is a teddy bear and a kind loving one. But God is no fairy tale, nothing is happily ever after. He is nothing to take lightly, for he is a strong forceful God as well. He doesnt sit there and be the kindest in the world. And to all people who say that science is proven right, let me say that is why there is no perfect science, it isnt right 100% at all. And to all those saying the bible is wrong, show me one part that is wrong in it.

Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

And bible errors? There's this website thingy, it's called "google" and if you type stuff into it and hit "search" you get a bunch of other website thingys with information. Try it. Here's one for you:

Bible Errors and Contradictions

And this one is my favorite, because it gives you a handy pocket guide to refer to:

7 E-Z Steps to get a handy collection of Bible Contradictions and Problems - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Happy reading!

[Thesecretsociety]

Hello spiffy:

If you are a person who thinks a belief is science is equal to a belief in God, then you'll never be convinced otherwise.

Maybe if you actually learned what science IS instead of listening to what your pastor thinks it is, this discussion might go somewhere. You may view my last statement as insulting. However, it's not. It's clear that you don't really have an understanding about science.

excon

What a pastor says and what is real, I know that is different. Pastors cannot say many things that are contraversial. What people don't realise is that science cannot trulely find the answer, even things that most of science is based on they do not know anything to its full extent, they cannot find final answers and that is because the way they are doing it is wrong. What people don't realise is what Science is , is basically a book of false things that everyone tries to use to prove God wrong. People don't even know that for almost every theory out there currently, there are theorys with just as much proof proving them wrong. For instance, one theory we all know. Global Warming, did you know they have basically proven that Global warming is actually the result of the suns heat cycles? They say that it is proven by the layers of rock alone. So if you believe in science for telling you all about life, and if you have faith in it as for telling you the truth, then you are the one that is living in ignorance. You cannot believe in something that cannot even believe in itself, Science changes every second, proving the last second was wrong. What you don't believe is that a belief in science is a belief in God to most people. Because if you do not believe in religion and you replace it with something, you always come up with a scientific fact to prove your right. I would like to hear one person tell me a reason Christianity is instantly wrong, without any science. But what even most Christians don't realise is I would like to see one of them to fully explain most things that happened in the bible with No science as well.

[Thesecretsociety]

Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

And bible errors? There's this website thingy, it's called "google" and if you type stuff into it and hit "search" you get a bunch of other website thingys with information. Try it. Here's one for you:

Bible Errors and Contradictions

And this one is my favorite, because it gives you a handy pocket guide to refer to:

7 E-Z Steps to get a handy collection of Bible Contradictions and Problems - ExChristian.Net - Articles

Happy reading!

This let me say is something I'm aware of, but as I stated earlier, The Bible has had many problems among translation and some of them is because the way we comprehend it is different. For instance, in the Bible when it Mentions God, It doesn't always mean the same thing. For instance God can be , Jesus, God, Or the Holy sprit. Second off many things that are said are just beyond our Comprehension. For instance, when he takes him up to see the kingdoms, that is explained by the meaning of kingdoms. But most of it is , the meaning of the words in our mind, and the actuality of them is different. But the Bible has been changed so much throughout the years, and that is what causes the difference in little things. I stated how the bible is infallible, but the people who make bibles in this generation and in the last ones , were not. There were the people who God Ordained to write his scriptures Unfortunately the gaps in the generation cause a lot of grief in the translation.

[spiffyness101]

Scriptures aren't proof. I can write a book about unicorns living in the sewers and have 300 other people do the same. Doesn't mean it's proof.

I'll never understand why someone would want to follow a deity they are afraid of; one who will send you to hell for eternity because you had premarital sex or used birth control or something. Or because you're fat (remember, gluttony is a sin, guess the whole of America is going to hell!).

So are you simply denying the things that have been proven from the Bible to be true, now all of the sudden false? Its not about following a deity that's scary or frightening just a God that loves the people He created... Yes, He does have wrath and it is something to be afraid of but the reasons for His wrath is, if you actually look, are within reasoning,maybe not to our reasoning or understanding but then His thoughts are nothing compared to ours.

You haven't truly looked at it as a whole if that is all you have come to the conclusion of. : /

[Capuchin]

Jill, funny you should mention unicorns, did you know that they are mentionned in the KJV a total of nine times?

[jillianleab]

So are you simply denying the things that have been proven from the Bible to be true, now all of the sudden false? Its not about following a deity thats scary or frightening just a God that loves the people He created...Yes, He does have wrath and it is something to be afraid of but the reasons for His wrath is, if you actually look, are within reasoning,maybe not to our reasoning or understanding but then His thoughts are nothing compared to ours.

You haven't truly looked at it as a whole if that is all you have come to the conclusion of. : /

Perhaps you should indicate which parts of the scripture you think have been proven, and then we can discuss this properly.

I understand following a religion is not about fear, and if you read carefully, that's not what I said. I said I don't understand why you would want to follow someone who will condemn you to hell for being fat. I'm sure you have your reasons and perhaps the good outweighs the bad, but that doesn't mean it doesn't seem completely illogical and senseless to me. I have studied religion, so don't assume that's the only thing I base my conclusions off. And sorry, but,

"if you actually look, are within reasoning, maybe not to our reasoning or understanding"

Makes no sense. You are saying god's reasoning is justified, but not justified to your personal reasoning, but since it's god, it must be okay? Got it. It's like when your mom tells you you can't do something because she says so; it's because god says so. What beautiful reasoning and logic! Perhaps if you take the time to read all the posts in this thread you will have a better understanding of why atheists choose to be atheists instead of making assumptions.

[rockerchick_682]

What sins have we committed to deserve what he's done to us? If there really was a God, I'd think we'd know by now, there'd be no doubt. Science explains much more than religion ever will. There is NO proof that God exists, prove me wrong. It IS possible to have morals and values without religion. If you weren't brought up to believe in God, would you still have faith?

[spiffyness101]

Perhaps you should indicate which parts of the scripture you think have been proven, and then we can discuss this properly.

I understand following a religion is not about fear, and if you read carefully, that's not what I said. I said I don't understand why you would want to follow someone who will condemn you to hell for being fat. I'm sure you have your reasons and perhaps the good outweighs the bad, but that doesn't mean it doesn't seem completely illogical and senseless to me. I have studied religion, so don't assume that's the only thing I base my conclusions off of. And sorry, but,

"if you actually look, are within reasoning, maybe not to our reasoning or understanding"

makes no sense. You are saying god's reasoning is justified, but not justified to your personal reasoning, but since it's god, it must be okay? Got it. It's like when your mom tells you you can't do something because she says so; it's because god says so. What beautiful reasoning and logic! Perhaps if you take the time to read all the posts in this thread you will have a better understanding of why atheists choose to be atheists instead of making assumptions.

Okay well first I highly doubt you are going to go to hell for being fat, not very likely, and no where have I read that, no where. We're sinful people but you'll never believe that and another topic... What about the parts of Jesus actually walking the earth and being alive? Him being crucified.. Has that not been proven?

As for the reasoning part, sometimes the reasons He has a lot of times we ourselves don't understand or comprehend to clearly. Our way of justice and God's is different; His THINKING is different. How come then atheits are trying so hard to disprove something they see millions of people following and believeing everyday? All I am saying is God isn't some horrible person sitting in the sky waiting to condemn people and punish them for their wrong doing, as much as so many wish to deny that fact He isn't. The God I believe in, my Savior, is Just, Fair, and Loving yet has Wrath that is unleashed when HE sees fit even though we may not. A little thing Grace and Mercy. Grace = Getting something GOOD you DON'T deserve and well Mercy = NOT getting something bad you DO deserve. But that's another topic... My point is we all have our opinions and such and have the freewill to express those if we so desire. This is simply my opinion and belief. : /

[firmbeliever]

What sins have we committed to deserve what he's done to us? If there really was a God, I'd think we'd know by now, there'd be no doubt. Science explains much more than religion ever will. There is NO proof that God exists, prove me wrong. It IS possible to have morals and values without religion. If you weren't brought up to believe in God, would you still have faith?

I know many who have grown up without religion but found the Creator of the worlds on their own and accepted it...

And I believe that the ones who accept the Almighty later in life sometimes have stronger faith than those born into religion as the adult learns and chooses the right path with their heart , and not because the parents taught them to be a certain way.

And I also know many born into monotheistic religion who have strengthend their faiths as they grow into adulthood because the teachings of religion they have been brought up in brings them peace and satisfaction of the soul (I am one of those):)

[spiffyness101]

Agreed. I've grown up in a Christian environment my whole life and I've struggles so much in my faith because it's all I've been taught but it took awhile to actually get it out of just my brain and head and place it in my heart... took some time but it was accomplished. But still if I hadn't grown up in that environment I don't know if would believe, I probably would but my answer will only lead into another topic and discussion...

[ordinaryguy]

What people don't realise is that science cannot trulely find the answer, even things that most of science is based on they do not know anything to its full extent, they cannot find final answers and that is because the way they are doing it is wrong.

You sure seem to know a lot about what "people dont realise". You keep repeating the mistaken notion that "science" is a set of facts or a search for "final answers", even though it's been pointed out several times that it's a method, not a particular result. If it's final answers, you want, you should definitely stick with religious dogma.

What people don't realise is what Science is , is basically a book of false things that everyone tries to use to prove God wrong.

"Everyone"?? You're hanging out with a bad crowd, I'm afraid. I've never met anyone who tried to use science as a "book of false things to prove God wrong".

So if you believe in science for telling you all about life, and if you have faith in it as for telling you the truth, then you are the one that is living in ignorance. You cannot believe in something that cannot even believe in itself, Science changes every second, proving the last second was wrong. What you don't believe is that a belief in science is a belief in God to most people. Because if you do not believe in religion and you replace it with something, you always come up with a scientific fact to prove your right. I would like to hear one person tell me a reason Christianity is instantly wrong, without any science. But what even most Christians don't realise is I would like to see one of them to fully explain most things that happened in the bible with No science as well.

I'm sorry, but this is incoherent babble. One more time: Science is not "something to believe in", it's just a technique for continually improving our explanations for observable phenomena.

[talaniman]

Science may not explain what's in your heart, but it can tell you how the heart works. To my way of thinking science, and God are not mutually exclusive.

[kt1205]

I'm supposed to be catholic. But I don't believe in god, devil, spirits, pcychics, ghosts, life after death, even life... etc.
Mainly because I see NO proof what so ever. Where did God come from? How is it possible?

[kt1205]

How did every little thing begin along long time ago?\

[jillianleab]

Okay well first I highly doubt you are going to go to hell for being fat, not very likely, and no where have I read that, no where. We're sinful people but you'll never believe that and another topic.... What about the parts of Jesus actually walking the earth and being alive? Him being crucified..? Has that not been proven?

As for the reasoning part, sometimes the reasons He has a lot of times we ourselves don't understand or comprehend to clearly. Our way of justice and God's is different; His THINKING is different. How come then atheits are trying so hard to disprove something they see millions of people following and believeing everyday? All I am saying is God isn't some horrible person sitting in the sky waiting to condemn people and punish them for their wrong doing, as much as so many wish to deny that fact He isn't. The God I believe in, my Savior, is Just, Fair, and Loving yet has Wrath that is unleashed when HE sees fit even though we may not. A little thing Grace and Mercy. Grace = Getting something GOOD you DON'T deserve and well Mercy = NOT getting something bad you DO deserve. But thats another topic...My point is we all have our opinions and such and have the freewill to express those if we so desire. This is simply my opinion and belief. : /

Gluttony is a sin, no? Yes I use that as an extreme example (get a sense of humor!), but I notice you didn't comment on going to hell for premarital sex... Oh, and you're right, I'll never believe we are "sinful people" because I don't believe in sin! :) As far as Jesus walking the earth and being alive or being crucified, that doesn't really "prove" anything. So some guy was born a really really long time ago, he made stuff up and got people to believe him. He was ordered to death and a few years later some of his followers wrote a book with him as the main character. So... what does that prove? But beyond that, there is question to if Jesus existed at all, so sorry, but you still have no "proof" of anything. Here's a lovely link which presents both sides:

Did Jesus Christ exist? All sides to the question

Poke around on the rest of the site. You might learn something.

As far as atheists being out to "disprove god" I don't know how many atheists you know, but I know a bunch and none are out to disprove god. We are simply happy to go about our day to day activities and not worry that we are going to hell. Oh, and to take your point a little further with regards to millions of people believing in Christianity, well, millions also believe in Islam and Hinduism. Oh and guess what? Non-religious folk account for 1.1 billion people in this world... So perhaps I should ask YOU why YOU are so against something BILLIONS of people believe?? I mean, only 2.1 billion people consider themselves Christian, as far as the world's population goes, that's not very many...

[ordinaryguy]

i'm supposed to be catholic. but i don't believe in god, devil, spirits, pcychics, ghosts, life after death, even life... etc.
mainly because i see NO proof what so ever. Where did God come from? How is it possible?

Science and religion both are about explanation. Neither one is about proof. If you're looking for proof to base your belief on, forget it. Religion demands belief without proof as a condition of entry and belonging. If you can't believe, then you don't belong, and the "explanations" religion offers will seem ridiculous to you.

If you don't belong in religion, but you still want explanations for why you were born or why the universe exists, then you're out of luck, because science doesn't even care about those questions, much less answer them. The only place I've found that even approaches these matters is the esoteric or mystical traditions, and even there, the answer is usually "Why are you so worried about this? It isn't really necessary to your next step, is it? Well, then take the next step and quit obsessing over things that don't really concern you."