[startover22]

Well, Mountain MAN, I was just thinking about how many books I haven't read...
AND WHY THAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN MY FAITH! OR NO FAITH??
I think that could come across the wrong way, your question that is...

[jillianleab]

My dictionary (Webster's 2003) defines "faith" as:
1. Unquestioning belief, specifically in god, a religion, etc.
2. A particular religion
3. Complete trust or confidence
4. Loyalty

I think what you are trying to argue is that it takes "faith" to believe in god, but it takes "faith" to not believe in god. Looking at the definition of "faith" I'll give you that (sorta) but "faith' in the religious sense is "religious faith" which is very different. Beyond that, I wouldn't say I have " which is very different. Beyond that, I wouldn't say I have " (#3) in science because it's not always right. I have confidence in science, I believe in science, but I do at times, question it. Just because one does not have "religious faith" doesn't mean they are devoid of faith in other applications and meanings.

It actually takes more faith to not believe that God exists at all because you have to constantly disapprove the existence of God to satisify your belief... I can just simply believe and leave it alone

Atheists aren't usually out to disprove god, it's theists who are out to prove he exists. That's why theists say things like " (#3) in science because it's not always right. I have confidence in science, I believe in science, but I do at times, question it. Just because one does not have ". They are trying to show and atheist where god is. As opposed to an atheist who just says, "god is in the sunset and in children's laughter". I don't wake up every morning and have to remind myself there is no god.

[mountain_man]

Well, Mountain MAN, I was just thinking about how many books I haven't read....
AND WHY THAT WOULD MAKE A DIFFERENCE IN MY FAITH!! OR NO FAITH???
I think that could come across the wrong way, your question that is...

How is it coming across the wrong way? I am just trying to make a point.

[startover22]

When you believe in something like God, there is no reminder either, HE is just there.
At least for me it is. Just like the child laugh is just there for you... Thanks Jillian. You have made a good point.

[startover22]

How is it coming across the wrong way? I am just trying to make a point.

Maybe I am misunderstanding your question...

[mountain_man]

My dictionary (Webster's 2003) defines "faith" as:
1. Unquestioning belief, specifically in god, a religion, etc.
2. A particular religion
3. Complete trust or confidence
4. Loyalty

I think what you are trying to argue is that it takes "faith" to believe in god, but it takes "faith" to not believe in god. Looking at the definition of "faith" I'll give you that (sorta) but "faith' in the religious sense is "religious faith" which is very different. Beyond that, I wouldn't say I have "faith" (#3) in science because it's not always right. I have confidence in science, I believe in science, but I do at times, question it. Just because one does not have "religious faith" doesn't mean they are devoid of faith in other applications and meanings.



Atheists aren't usually out to disprove god, it's theists who are out to prove he exists. That's why theists say things like "god is in the sunset and in children's laughter". They are trying to show and atheist where god is. As opposed to an atheist who just says, "a sunset is a sunset and a kid's laugh is a kid's laugh". I don't wake up every morning and have to remind myself there is no god.

I am saying the faith is very abstract and not at all logical or proveable but Atheists have mountains of it because they unquestionably, in complete confidence, and with extreme loyalty believe God doesn't exist?

[mountain_man]

Maybe I am misunderstanding your question...

My question and point was of the 70 million literary items in the Library of Congress individually only probably know a fraction of a percent... Right? Then "Do you think it is logically possible that God may exist in the 99.9 percent that is outside your pool of knowledge and experience?"

[NeedKarma]

I am saying the faith is very abstract and not at all logical or proveable but Atheists have mountains of it b/c they unquestionably, in complete confidence, and with extreme loyalty believe God doesn't exist??

Atheists don't require mountains of faith, why are you making stuff up?

[startover22]

I cannot answer for an atheist... I just can't...

[NeedKarma]

My question and point was of the 70 million literary items in the Library of Congress individually only probably know a fraction of a percent...Right? Then "Do you think it is logically possible that God may exist in the 99.9 percent that is outside your pool of knowledge and experience?"

What does that have to do with anything since the Bible is the only book you believe to be true?

[Synnen]

The rejoinder for that question is this:

In YOUR SPECIFIC life, where have you had PROOF that God exists?

Just because I can't see gravity doesn't mean I don't know it's there. Same thing with China. I've never experienced the green flash at sunset, or walked on the moon. I've never seen a black hole, or DNA strands through a microscope. All of these things are out of my personal scope of knowledge.

What you're trying to say is that God might be in the things that are out of an atheists personal scope of knowledge... that God exists in the cracks, per se.

The point you're not getting is that to an atheist---it's not GOD in the cracks. It's something not yet explained.

Just because I don't know the answer to something doesn't mean that the answer is God. For all I know, the answer is 42.

[mountain_man]

Atheists don't require mountains of faith, why are you making stuff up?

You have completely missed the point... and also the Bible is NOT the ONLY book I believe to be true...

[spiffyness101]

No need to be hostile, I get your point. You think science has the answers for everything and that is where you base your beliefs. Science is right, until more is discovered. Why does it mean that that there can't be both?
The reason I brought up philosophy or psychology is because I am saying this is the human way of understanding how we think and how we behave. Nothing is absolute, it is a perspective. It truly amazes me how we discovered the ability to use science to create an understanding of our existence. It doesn't disprove that God doesn't exists. At all.
So, whatever you believe to be true, and however you understand things, that is your truth. Same with me, it doesn't mean that either one of us our right, it is just our perspective on what we know and the limited understanding we have.
We relate to time as something that moves forward, what I am saying is that it isn't PROVEN. We have created an understanding of time moving forward, that doesn't mean that it is. How do you know how long anything has really been here for? That was my point.
Feelings can be monitored by machines and scientists, they cannot be explained as to why we have them,or when we have them. (Other than pain, which is a physical reaction.) So our physical reactions in the brain can be detected, but the reasons why we have the emotions we have and where they came from cannot.

First off again, this has come into an interesting topic and it is exciting to see how different people think and their views. :)
I like when shattered said its our perspective;how we ourselves view things. True, like someone said earlier that if you do believe, in whatever though personally I do believe in God, you have this innate desire to tell everyone what it is you believe and it to be the absolute truth. I don't see anything wrong with that because we all have brains and majority of people can think for themselves and decide whether they wish to believe or not;again going back to your own perception.
Although it seems that people tend to make a bigger deal out of this subject then what it is by bringing in science, although science has helped us a lot, etc. Main point is you can choose to believe in whatever you want. I know what I believe and I do believe it to be true and it is my own personal point of view;opinion. Just because someone else has a different opinion doesn't I'll change my mind, maybe add to my belief if I choose but not likely to persuade me. :)

[mountain_man]

The rejoinder for that question is this:

in YOUR SPECIFIC life, where have you had PROOF that God exists?

Just because I can't see gravity doesn't mean I don't know it's there. Same thing with China. I've never experienced the green flash at sunset, or walked on the moon. I've never seen a black hole, or DNA strands through a microscope. All of these things are out of my personal scope of knowledge.

What you're trying to say is that God might be in the things that are out of an atheists personal scope of knowledge....that God exists in the cracks, per se.

The point you're not getting is that to an atheist---it's not GOD in the cracks. It's something not yet explained.

Just because I dont' know the answer to something doesn't mean that the answer is God. For all I know, the answer is 42.

All I am saying is that God may exist logically outside of your finite logic or reasoning!

In my life I know God exists because I was at the bottom of the barrel with drugs, booze, women, etc and had enough... started getting depressed and literally cried out that if you are real and you are God than do something to help me... the very next day my stepdad called up and said I have a job offer for you if you can get here by tomorrow (Vegas to Kansas) I left two hours later... God delivered me from myself! That is why I believe the way I do.

[firmbeliever]

First off again, this has come into an interesting topic and it is exciting to see how different people think and their views. :)
I like when shattered said its our perspective;how we ourselves view things. True, like someone said earlier that if you do believe, in whatever though personally I do believe in God, you have this innate desire to tell everyone what it is you believe and it to be the absolute truth. I don't see anything wrong with that because we all have brains and majority of people can think for themselves and decide whether they wish to believe or not;again going back to your own perception.
Although it seems that people tend to make a bigger deal out of this subject then what it is by bringing in science, although science has helped us a lot, and etc. Main point is you can choose to believe in whatever you want. I know what I believe and I do believe it to be true and it is my own personal point of view;opinion. Just because someone else has a different opinion doesn't I'll change my mind, maybe add to my belief if I choose but not likely to persuade me. :)

Says to spread the reputation so I can't give you a greenie,
But you have put it so well...

"I know what I believe and I do believe it to be true and it is my own personal point of view;opinion. Just because someone else has a different opinion doesn't I'll change my mind, maybe add to my belief if I choose but not likely to persuade me."

And this is true for me too... :)

[jillianleab]

Just because I dont' know the answer to something doesn't mean that the answer is God. For all I know, the answer is 42.

Silly, the answer isn't 42, it's "C". The answer is ALWAYS "C"! :D

[Synnen]

Jillian, you seriously need to read Douglas Adams.

The answer is always 42.

Mountainman, unfortunately I'm at work, and don't have time to type out my full response.

I don't knock your faith... but an atheist would say that you yourself found your way out of that barrel, by finally noticing and taking help that was offered to you. We, ourselves, can change our worlds.

Both points of view are valid, and both can have perfectly happy adherents.

[spiffyness101]

All I am saying is that God may exist logically outside of your finite logic or reasoning!

In my life I know God exists b/c I was at the bottom of the barrel with drugs, booze, women, etc and had enough...started getting depressed and literally cried out that if you are real and you are God than do something to help me...the very next day my stepdad called up and said I have a job offer for you if you can get here by tommorrow (Vegas to Kansas) I left two hours later.....God delivered me from myself!! That is why I believe the way I do.

I'm glad He delievered you, that's a story you are able to share with others. So many get cared away though and end up trying to force it on them and end up driving them away... Not to say that is what you will do, just saying I've seen so many people do that, but that is a wonderful story that, if you choose, can share with others who have experienced similar situations. :)

And one last thing to add is that we are finite but as I believe God is INfinite(everlasting). We die... we don't exist forever in our human forms or the form we were born into and given. :)

[mountain_man]

Jillian, you seriously need to read Douglas Adams.

The answer is always 42.

Mountainman, unfortunately I'm at work, and don't have time to type out my full response.

I don't knock your faith...but an atheist would say that you yourself found your way out of that barrel, by finally noticing and taking help that was offered to you. We, ourselves, can change our worlds.

Both points of view are valid, and both can have perfectly happy adherents.

An atheist would say that... but what would you say?

[Synnen]

I'd say that Karma works. Karma ALWAYS works.

Somehow along the way, you helped someone else. The good vibes from that came back to you threefold, and gave you the help you needed, when you needed it.

While I believe that having faith in the Lady has a tremendous influence on my life, I also think that she leaves most things alone, and lets our own actions determine the course of our lives--good or bad.