[NeedKarma]

Sorry firm, I don't run my life based on hedging a bet.

[Capuchin]

Time, as in the forward movement through some dimension that we have no control over, obviously exists. It's just that Einstein came up with a different way to look at it, a different way of thinking about it. One that makes predictions that no other way of thinking had ever made, and those predictions were confirmed by real measurements. This is science.

God was an answer to a question, why is the sky blue, where did humans come from, who made the sun shine. All of these were answered by the concept of a god. Now, we have much more measurable and prediction-creating theories as to why these things are. God is turning more and more into an answer without a question.

[Capuchin]

Firm, I believe you are referring to Pascal's wager. Pascal was one of the most influential people in science, it went something like this:

* You live as though God exists.
O If God exists, you go to heaven: your gain is infinite.
O If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

* You live as though God does not exist.
O If God exists, you go to hell: your loss is infinite.
O If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.

By his reasoning, if you believe in god then your gain is infinite or is nothing. Whereas if you do not believe in god then your loss is infinite or is nothing. Thus it is best to believe in god.

It makes many assumptions, it assumes that god is not benevolent, that he only rewards belief, that the christian god is the correct one, that he rewards even people who only believe out of fear, and assumes that heaven/hell is infinitely good/bad.
So there are a lot of problems with these assumptions, as you will probably work out for yourself.

[excon]

the ones who work for a heaven have nothing to lose if they are wrong, but what if the ones who dont believe are wrong?

Hello firm:

Your writer suggests that only one side of the bet is taking a risk. He thinks the game is fixed because if it turns out he lived his entire life believing in a fantasy that turns out NOT to be true, he didn't lose anything.

An atheist like me, however, would say that he lost the only thing he ever had.

excon

[shatteredsoul]

OK, that is Einstein's theory, but time is something that man created but that doesn't mean it really exists. That was my point. God doesn't have to be the answer for everything for you, but maybe that is where the struggle comes in. I am not saying I don't understand your perspective, just saying you should be more open to others. You want to disprove what you don't know, just as you want to prove what you think you do know.
Science is amazing, it expains so much and is so useful. Imagine if we used more than a small percentage of our brain, what we would understand? Life is a mystery, because it is supposed to be, you can find wonder, beauty and small miracles in all of it, or not. That is a personal choice. Just because science makes sense to you, doesn't mean that a creator didn't create all of it, including science. We cannot explain why we fall in love, with who we fall in love with, it just is. For me, the creator, just is. To name the creator God, is my choice. I think because of all the rules around what and how to believe, it frightens and angers people. I just am trying to say that we were given abilities, talents, feelings, emotions, and the knowledge to live in this life, but not all of it is explained with a scientific theory. There is something more to it than that, but because it cannot be written out in detail, you say it must not exist. We can explain why the sky is blue, or why the sun is out, we can explain why the clouds give us rain. What we can't explain is how this makes us feel when we see a beautiful sunset, or when we feel raindrops on our face, or what it is like to look at the most amazing sky at night with all the glorious stars and planets. Yes, you can explain science, but the feelings and emotions that come from within us, come from within and therefore cannot be explained. It doesn't mean that they don't exist.

[firmbeliever]

Hey Excon and Capuchin,
I wasn't referring to any scientist at all, it was just a member of this forum who said this and it stuck on my mind...

And about taking risks,
I believe what I believe as I believe it is the truth...

[jillianleab]

Science is amazing, it expains so much and is so useful. Imagine if we used more than a small percentage of our brain, what we would understand?

It's actually a myth we only use a small percentage of our brain. Neuroscience for Kids - 10% of the Brain Myth

[spiffyness101]

As a believer in The Creator of the worlds, I have always wondered how an atheist comes to the conclusion that God is non existent ?
Please do not think that I am going to argue your points,just curious!!!:confused:

Thanks in advance.

First, this is a topic that can go in so many directions and here is my opinion. :)

People can believe in what they choose, whether God our Savior or just another god of their own. I think we all have the brain capacity to believe in Christ because I believe that is how we were created. However, it is hard to imagine how one person or being could have created this world and us and everything else but like I also believe He is omniscent, omnipresent, and our brains and way of thinking can not even compare to His. That's just how it is. There is so much more I could say but I hate to think I would offend anyone if I already haven't; if I have I'm sorry...

Scientists have wondered this for many years and no doubt they will continue as will many other people do and will. We're humans and were created with this curiosity to know and think "Is there something else..?" Coincidence.. I believe there is a reason we have that curiosity just like I believe everything happens for a reason. But we're also meant to enjoy the life we've be given and not go knocking on people's door to say "hey believe this" or"Don't believe this" , etc. Last thing is we seem to forget that you can still love the person for who they are and not like or disagree with what they believe. :)

[shatteredsoul]

Thanks for starting such an interesting thread. Everyone has something to offer and learn from on here.
I wanted to add that, I don't think whether you believe or don't, it has any affect on God. It only has an affect on how you perceive and live your life. I don't think God would have created us with the ability to make our own minds, mistakes, or choices, if we were going to be punished by them. That is something that was created by man, as a way of knowing what rules we think we should follow and how to behave in a society.
Whether we want to believe, choose to believe, or not, doesn't make something exist or not exist. IT just changes our perspective. I think that when we die, we have the clarity to understand what we don't now, and we become part of the energy that goes on in the universe. This doesn't mean I believe there is someone waiting with a staff and rod waiting to tell me where to go. I choose in this life what I want, and the consequences that I reap, are here on earth. I don't think that many people see themselves as responsible or good enough to have God within them, but that doesn't mean it isn't true. I guess what I am saying is that God is probably not what we have read to believe, but what we are made up of and what we are connected to in this life and this universe. That may not make sense to everyone, so it is easier for many to believe in religion. Or, to not believe in anything. Religion has specific rules, and it is something to lean on when you feel you cannot rely on yourself.
When your mind and body is completely quiet and you have the ability to listen to that inner voice inside, what and who do you think that is? I think it is God in us, talking to us, waiting for us to listen, to OURSELVES> WE have the answers within. We don't need a textbook or a bible to tell us. That is what people need to feel safe.
Therefore, the God you say doesn't exist is in you, in me, that is what we are.

[Capuchin]

But science can explain feelings, we can monitor them on a MRI scan, we can tell if people are lying because of their emotional states, we can go "ping, yeah i reckon he's happy", maybe not very accurately, but technology is getting better all the time. Feelings are measureable and they exist. Time is measureable and it exists. What we feel when there's a sunset is measurable and it exists. God is not measurable except as a personal feeling or thought, and that's exactly what I believe he is, he's not physical, he's your way of dealing with the world and he's within you, he's personal to you.

[shatteredsoul]

I guess we will never see eye to eye, I am trying to understand where you are coming from, I just don't agree. I am not religious and I am not spouting how you should think or feel.
OK, a test determines if their body suggests that they may be lying. It doesn't show what they are feeling. An MRI can show brain activity, but it cannot detect if one is feeling love or whatever emotion within them. Feelings aren't based on science, and there are only theories, that is why we have psychology. We have philosophy to understanding different ways of looking at things. These abilities to disect, debate, discover and understand are not explained by science, they just are.

It is like looking at the glass half empty or half full, I guess my view seems half full, as does yours.

Time exists in the way we understand it, that doesn't mean that is the way it really is. Kind of like our existence.
Can each of our own perspectives and understandings of our existence be explained by science as well?

[startover22]

Naw, feelings are base on our perception of things, not science. And Karma, I am not quitting yet, I just have my issues with it all...
You all have such a different way of putting things... I find that fascinating.

[Capuchin]

You show someone a picture of their daughter, take a MRI, it shows that a part of their brain fires up. Every time you show someone, anyone, a picture of something they love, the same areas of the brain fire up.
That is direct evidence of a feeling, love. It's scientifically measurable. And that's only with the tiny amount of technology we have today, just imagine what will be possible in the future, it's a function of your body just like a beating heart or a tensing muscle, and it's not outside of the physical reality. It's right there, flashing up on a screen for all to see.

Of course "feelings aren't based on science". THat's a ridiculous thing to ask of science. Science measures the physical world and feelings are a part of the physical world.

I have no idea what your point is with philosophy... Everything in the world "just is", that is my point. Science tries to explain these things that just are. I thought that your point is that God created these things and so that things aren't "just is".

"Time exists in the way we understand it, that doesn't mean that is the way it really is." Sure, I'll concede that, but that doesn't mean that the way we understand it is not correct to the extent that we can measure, which is enough for science until something is measured that is not explained by current understanding, and then a new theory is made. That's how science works.

"Can each of our own perspectives and understandings of our existence be explained by science as well?"
Yes. If a scientist had you genes as well as a complete history of your life, they could tell you, with a lot of time and a little technology, exactly why you are the way you are. Of course they can't do this now, but in the future when more is known, there's no reason why not.

[firmbeliever]

Isn't science marvelous for us who believe in a Creator,
It just shows that our physical selves are miraculously well made!

[tkrussell]

Sorry if I throw the thread a bit, but thought I would respond to this question, what with being such a simple direct question, with no apparent agenda, and the excellent following adult conversation. I work at avoiding this topic.

Atheists can be considered as simply pragmatic, each for their own reason. We tend to only believe in what is. Attitude and ego do get in the way many at times when discussing with believers, but my conversations with fellow atheists usually begins at look at what is going on in the world right now, and then what history has shown all of us.

Science and religious teachings are methods of explaining, to each his own. If only each would believe in what they want and leave others alone, as in all of humankind, what a world it could be.

If there is a supreme being, I would like to have a chat with him/her. (Pretty clever, covering all my bases. Why is God never a woman? Definitely stronger gender.) I have an issue with someone that sits back and watches all the death and destruction, and maybe, just maybe, grant a miracle to those that pray. All the power to those that do, sincerely.

Funny thing is I believe in the "other side". I research all I can and seen and heard things that convinces me there is something we all don't know, but will once we pass.

For someone living without a belief in a supreme being, I am doing OK, having lived through bad times many could not imagine. I will take the good with the bad as it comes. Treat others as you would like to be treated, it does work. Good words and moral, nothing mystical about it.

I also believe most atheists really don't want to talk about. It is human nature to try to be right, it can be intimidating to be up against so many that do believe. I personally hate arguing about this, I just go about my life and do the best I can with what I see.

[Capuchin]

Even more marvelous for those of us who don't :)

[shatteredsoul]

No need to be hostile, I get your point. You think science has the answers for everything and that is where you base your beliefs. Science is right, until more is discovered. Why does it mean that that there can't be both?
The reason I brought up philosophy or psychology is because I am saying this is the human way of understanding how we think and how we behave. Nothing is absolute, it is a perspective. It truly amazes me how we discovered the ability to use science to create an understanding of our existence. It doesn't disprove that God doesn't exists. At all.
So, whatever you believe to be true, and however you understand things, that is your truth. Same with me, it doesn't mean that either one of us our right, it is just our perspective on what we know and the limited understanding we have.
We relate to time as something that moves forward, what I am saying is that it isn't PROVEN. We have created an understanding of time moving forward, that doesn't mean that it is. How do you know how long anything has really been here for? That was my point.
Feelings can be monitored by machines and scientists, they cannot be explained as to why we have them,or when we have them. (Other than pain, which is a physical reaction.) So our physical reactions in the brain can be detected, but the reasons we have the emotions we have and where they came from cannot.

[mountain_man]

Capuchin,

I am late to the board... Do you believe that God exists?

[Capuchin]

I apologise if I was hostile, I don't think I was though...

It doesn't disprove that flying lemons don't exist either, or peanut-butter-planets, but you think those are absurd, right?

Of course they can be explained in terms of evolutionary science. Feelings make evolutionary sense, they protect your genes. If we had no feelings we wouldn't be motivated to do anything. If we didn't do anythign we would die. Thus feelings evolved, that's why we have them.

[Capuchin]

I don't believe that God exists except in the minds of people who believe that he does.