[chrisl]

There are many people who use the bible to propagate there beliefs from it, and they only use parts that agree with there agendas

Do you see that you have just described yourself? :confused:

Nearly every portion of the Bible you have quoted has been either out of context, misapplied or both. You open yourself up to your own accusation!

I recently came across a very wise view of how to properly understand the Bible: "The true meaning of any [Bible] text can be determined only when it is harmonized with the rest of the Bible and in keeping with their contexts. That way, the interpretation is God's, not man's." If you do this honestly, every false teaching is exposed, and every single one of your claims collapses.

God provides the means to understand his word.

Chris

[G4-450]

Your really clever with rhetoric here, how low will you go to get others to convert is going to be something you really need to address sooner or later.

You're the one who wants to convert people into a religion when you yourself knows that many christians put there faith in the wrong things, for the fact that no one knows who wrote some of the gospels, and that its evident that other gospels aside the ones of Jesus have been snapped into the bible, its called corruption, Jesus spoke out against it and reminded everyone about the commandments.

Also, How can it be a golden rule when in the hands of religious fanatics?

Some facts about the bible and the religions that built faith on the doubts.

There are a total of 66 books contained in the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. There was a total of 40 different authors who wrote these books over a 1500 year period from different parts of the world in different languages and last many didn't ever meet the other authors."

The philosophic "center" of the New Testament is the first four books (Matthew, Mark, Luke,and John), which are known as the "Gospels". The rest of the New Testament is, for all practical purposes, an elaboration on these four books. Many Christians believe that these four Gospels were written by the direct disciples of Jesus, but, as you will see, this is hardly the case. So even the beloved Gospels are not free from the nagging doubt of dubious authorship. Christians cite the similarity of the Gospels as "proof" of their authenticity. But the similarities between these four books is due to the existence of a alleged collection of the sayings of Jesus called "Q". The compiler of Q is unknown. Christians place enormous faith that this unknown person(s) did not 1) fabricate his own sayings to suit his own agenda, and 2) use saying from questionable sources.

Also, as I noted earlier, there were over 50 different Gospels in circulation at the time the New Testament was compiled. Since the persons choosing the canon used only books that were, more or less, harmonious, it is reasonable to conclude that the results would be... harmonious books!

For example, one book that did not make it into the New Testament was the "Gospel of Peter", because the book does not consider the Crucifixion as an act of atonement. Similarly, the "Acts of John" was not included because of its subversion of traditional Christian teachings (such as, denying the reality of Jesus's physical body). It may be argued that these (and many other books) were not included because of "questionable authorship", but the authorship of these books is no less questionable than other books that have been included.

---MORE DETAILS?
Around a hundred years after the Gospel was written, ie. towards the end of the second century, a famous Christian writer and martyr called Irenaeus (about 130-200 C.E.) identified the author of this Gospel as a man named John, called a disciple of the Lord and the one who leaned on Jesus at the Last Supper ie. the disciple whom Jesus loved. "Lastly John, the Lord's disciple, who also reclined on his breast, himself produced the Gospel when he was staying in Ephesus in Asia".

Irenaus is writing at a time when this Gospel is in great danger of being rejected as a legitimate or canonical Gospel. Some are saying it comes from a heretical group called the Gnostics who emphasised knowledge (gnosis) and the mind, and downplayed the value of the physical and human experience. To rescue this gospel it was important to attribute it to an eyewitness, preferably one of the disciples - even better if it was one of the inner circle of Apostles - Peter, James and John.

The Authorship of the bible

[chrisl]

Your really clever with rhetoric here, how low will you go to get others to convert is going to be something you really need to address sooner or later.

The truth is the truth. It's neither clever nor rhetorical, and requires no apologies. My goal is not to convert anyone, but to refute falsehoods and encourage people to look at the scriptures with an open mind and without bias or prejudice, and reason on them. When that happens, the Bible will make its own converts.

Some facts about the bible and the religions that built faith on the doubts.

As I suspected, you are just looking up other's criticisms and picking the sources that tell you what you want to hear. How do you know any of this is "fact"? Would you want others to judge the Quran by whatever they can find on the web?

Come on now, you have yet to make a coherent argument based on the what the scriptures themselves actually say. Have you looked into any of this for yourself?

Chris

[G4-450]

The truth is the truth. It's neither clever nor rhetorical, and requires no apologies. My goal is not to convert anyone, but to refute falsehoods and encourage people to look at the scriptures with an open mind and without bias or prejudice, and reason on them. When that happens, the Bible will make its own converts.


As I suspected, you are just looking up other's criticisms and picking the sources that tell you what you want to hear. How do you know any of this is "fact"? Would you want others to judge the Quran by whatever they can find on the web?

Come on now, you have yet to make a coherent argument based on the what the scriptures themselves actually say. Have you looked into any of this for yourself?

Chris

Your problem is the Qu'ran, you simply can not believe it's the same God of Abraham when God is one God.

Its called racism, you want to judge a book by its cover fine, and the people fine, better get to know your friends because there is more under there skin then just what seems to meeet the eye, and racism does not mean you hate, you may also love certain people over others.

Jesus spoke against this too when the scribes claimed religion with birth rites.

[chrisl]

Your problem is the Qu'ran, you simply can not believe its the same God of Abraham when God is one God.

Its called racism, you want to judge a book by its cover fine, and the people fine, better get to know your friends because there is more under there skin then just what seems to meeet the eye, and racism does not mean you hate, you may also love certain people over others.

Jesus spoke against this too when the scribes claimed religion with birth rites.

Sigh. Still no discussion about what the scriptures actually say...

My problem is not the Quran. My problem is that you are making a lot of unsubstantiated claims and keep switching the subject. I want to talk about what is in God's word and you want to accuse me of hate and racism, and then throw in, for no apparent reason, an issue about birth rights!

What does any of that have to do with the vailidity of the Bible??

The truth in the Bible stands on its own, no matter what anyone--including me, you, the ancient Jews, the Catholic Church or all of Islam--says.

Chris

[G4-450]

Chris,

There are links you can read that prove the Bible has been so tampered with in ways that it will take one years before they understand that it all started with ABRAHAM and Moses. and I am saying that in this story tale if you want to call it, its all about Abraham.

Moses who was after Abraham had the Torah. and it starts with Genesis, why do you still confuse Abraham to be after Moses, its all about the Qiblaa (Kabaa) and Abraham's religion.

Why did you thing the jews pray facing the wall in jerusalem, the Dome of the rock is a mosque, its where abraham almost sacrificed his first son Ishmail..

You said earlier that you did not want anything to do with politics in the middle east, well they say its people like you that create and fallow phony religions that start the problems of misguiding others into false Gods.
People who have a problem with Abraham's religion are breaking away from the one universal God who created all worlds. it's the greatest sin..

Golden Rule in this story, One God is our God, the same God Jesus prayed to in the Garden and on his face and the same God Mohammed also spoke about.

Here is a link to a good muslim christian debate about the bible.
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/foru...468&PN=1&TPN=1
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/foru...p?TID=591&PN=1
Some bible facts
http://www.holysmoke.org/sdhok/aotb.htm
The Christian views about Islam and the Qur'an has no grounds of evidence they are pure rhetoric and conjecture. its all pure politics to keep business going as usual.

So you better be sure about what religion you pick if that is what you want to do, either wise do not at all and or just fallow the rules (commandments by yourself is all I am saying, why all this trouble in the world is happening because some people think God belongs to them, if there is God then we Belong to him and to God we all return.

[chrisl]

There are links you can read that prove the Bible has been so tampered with

Whatever. Would you like some links that "prove" Elvis is alive, the earth is flat or that Martians run the world's governments? :rolleyes:

I get my views by looking for myself, studying and making reasoned decisions. I don't make judgments on the hearsay of others, especially those who are openly biased or opposed.

why do you still confuse Abraham to be after Moses

Um, I don't even know what you're talking about here. I've never even mentioned Moses and Abraham! From your comments, I can tell you don't have the slightest idea what I believe or what my stand is on these matters. You just assume, and so far you have consistently assumed wrong.

grounds of evidence

How you can even talk about evidence? You haven't provided any other than your opinion and those of some web sites. What do the scriptures say? If you're judging the scriptures, that's the only real basis for judgment.

Chris

[G4-450]

:)

You missed it 4 times.

What did you learn about Abraham?
The middle east and anthropology, where evidence that man dates back to areas like Iraq and Iran?

You threw all the evidence away before by saying its demonic to look into the middle east and politics, you prefer to fallow your own fancies, you broke the very first and most important rule that Abraham, Moses , Jesus and Mohammed spoke of, NEVER TAKE ANOTHER GOD BUT GOD AS THE DISPOSER OF YOUR AFFAIRS.

I did so provide Evidence, and proved it all to you against your own false beliefs which do not stand for the one same God of all mankind. your ideologies of God do not agree with Abraham do they?

Learn about abraham before trying to fallow parts of what Abraham started which is the One God religion for all humanity. Abraham is what all 3 faiths are based on, all 3, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. you proved you have no say about the bible altogether, you obviously never read it correctly to understand why it was written for mankind. if anyone defers from this they have no part of the Torah, Gospels or the Qur'an, they simply fallow Paul's and or other religions with CONJECTURE because Abraham was called the friend of God and was thee example.

Abraham set up a Qibla so all human kind can remember and worship one true God, no difference what you look like , if your rich or poor, your all equal. God creates as he wishes and no one has say over Gods creation.

So you left out a important part of the book to play by your own rules, you even said its demonic to think in those areas, well you're the only demonic one here who denies one true God and accuses others of been up to something while you want to convert them. God guides who he wills, do you understand that yet or what? God does not guide evil people, should he guide people who never recognized there faults and do mischief in the world there would never be justice and who God does not Guide, No one can, so embrace your free choice to do good or evil here because in the next life you, me and all living creators will be in the mercy of God and its been said that you will sacrifice everything you have and not all the treasures of the earth will get your ticket into heaven if you're a wicked soul.

So you can not guide anyone and either can I, we should be practicing truth and Abraham is the friend of God, so if you want to understand at least hwat I am saying, try starting with why Abraham almost sacrificed his first son Ishmael, read up for yourself, and do not say it was Isaac since Isaac was his second son.

[Morganite]

Although 'tetragrammaton' is a Greek word, it refers to one of the names or titles of God in the Hebrew Scriptures, which was written 'yod hey vav (or waw) hey,' from which are derived its Anglicised versions, Jehovah or Yahweh.

Since the name of God has been ineffable to those of Hebrew descent from time immemorial, its correct pronunciation is a matter for speculation.

Jews reading the scriptures and pointing to YHVW (or YHWH), use a circumlocution, such as 'ha-shem,' meaning 'The Name,' by which Jews understand that it means God.

As to which God I worship, I worship Elohim, or God the Father.

Jehovah I believe to be the premortal Jesus who acted in the name, authority, and place of the Father as his mediator between makind and himself.

[G4-450]

Although 'tetragrammaton' is a Greek word, it refers to one of the names or titles of God in the Hebrew Scriptures, which was written 'yod hey vav (or waw) hey,' from which are derived its Anglicised versions, Jehovah or Yahweh.

Since the name of God has been ineffable to those of Hebrew descent from time immemorial, its correct pronounciation is a matter for speculation.

Jews reading the scriptures and pointing to YHVW (or YHWH), use a circumlocution, such as 'ha-shem,' meaning 'The Name,' by which Jews understand that it means God.

As to which God I worship, I worship Elohim, or God the Father.

Jehovah I believe to be the premortal Jesus who acted in the name, authority, and place of the Father as his mediator between makind and himself.

Again, you blasphemy

You better learn a single semitic language to understand the phrasing and criteria of the texts,

Jehovah is a Christian version of the Hebrew texts,NOT THE HEBREW MEANING OF ELOHIM AND WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS GOD IN THE TORAH.

Do you really want to go over this a hundred times because your convinced Jehovah is the name of God and the name means everything to you, why not ALLAH then since ALLAH is the same God Jesus referred to, I mean who did Jesus pray to when he fell on his face in the garden to ask for the removal of death, certainly it was not Jesus talking on the cross when you heard the gossip that god forsaking him?

You can believe what you want if your going to mix fiction up in all this.
But if you want to truth, go back to Abraham, the father of all 3 faiths, and ask yourself when Jesus referred to him as the father of the children of Israel rather then Jacob aka Israel, especially after Israel broke there covenant with new texts that claimed the Talmud is holier then God and that Judaism is thee religion for the children of Jacob (aka Israel)

[NeedKarma]

G4-450,

You seem to have a lot of anger. Anger and extreme fundamentalism are a nasty mix.

[Morganite]

Please, Sir,

With the greatest deference to your scholarship and intelligence, may I suggest to you that you have me mistaken for another person?

This is the first time that I have posted to this thread, so whoever it is that you bave in mind to uinsult, you are wasting your bitterness, apparent hatred, and foolishness on me.

Check my name. It is MORGANITE, and, as far as I know, I am the only Morganite on this board.

Naturally, I will accept your apology, if you can raise yourself to the level of a gentleman and admit that you are wrong and have attacked someone who has not attacked you, and for a specious reason.

The very idea!

I have not read your reply, but I take it that you objected to something I wrote concerning the tetragrammaton.

You are free to make your objection but in a civilised and scholarly way, and not as if you were some raging madman.

I have never dealt with you before, but I ask you, in all sincerity, to treat me with respect, if for no other reasoin than that I am a person of age and wisdom.

If you cannot disagree with someone, especially someone you do not know, without making a personal attack, then you are mentally and spiritually unfitted to engage in any kind of serious debate.

Yours faithfully,

MORGANITE




I will now turn my attention to the details of your post.

===================

You better learn a single semitic language to understand the phrasing and criteria of the texts,

Will Classical Hebrew satisfy you?

Jehovah is a Christian version of the Hebrew texts,NOT THE HEBREW MEANING OF ELOHIM AND WHAT IS REFERRED TO AS GOD IN THE TORAH.

Please re-read what I wrote, and to which you have taken extraordinary objection. Nowhere have I said that Jehovah is a translation of Elohim.

Elohim is a Hebrew word translated as 'God' in English. The tetragrammaton is a Greek work meaning FOUR LETTERS because the name translated as Jehovah is derived from four Hebrew letters, "yod, hey, vav (or waw) hey," that are Anglicised as Jehovah.

In different places in the Hebrew Scriptuires, God is referred to as Elohim and Jehovah.

It is my belief that Elohim is God the Father, and Jehovah is the pre-mortal Jesus Christ. You may not agree, but I have never been convinced of anything by a mere bad-tempered rant, and you offer no argument in support of your position against mine, only childish insults.


Do you really want to go over this a hundred times

I have only written of it once before, and this reply makes twice. I would not have written this had it not been for your angry response.

because your convinced Jehovah is the name of God and the name means everything to you,

As I wrote, I believe that the name Jehovah, or yahweh, is the name of the pre-mortal Jesus.

why not ALLAH then since ALLAH is the same God Jesus referred to,

Allah is derived from the same root as El, the Hebrew name for God, and from which EL-ohim is derived. It is not a problem for me what you call God as long as you get it right in any language..


I mean who did Jesus pray to when he fell on his face in the garden to ask for the removal of death, certainly it was not Jesus talking on the cross when you heard the gossip that god forsaking him?

Gossip? The words, in Aramaic, the natural tongue of Judean Jews at the time, ar the ippissima verba of Jesus.

You can believe what you want if your going to mix fiction up in all this.

You say it is fiction, and you are welcome to your opinion. Can you be man enough to tell me that I am welcome to mine?


But if you want to truth, go back to Abraham, the father of all 3 faiths, and ask yourself when Jesus referred to him as the father of the children of Israel rather then Jacob aka Israel, especially after Israel broke there covenant with new texts that claimed the Talmud is holier then God and that Judaism is thee religion for the children of Jacob (aka Israel)

I did not address these points in my post on the tetragrammaton, and I find your comments on so garbled that I am unsure of what you mean.

I trust that this makes everything clear for you.

If you desire further conversations on this matter, and you are willing to put down your six-shooters and speak with of it with the respect and scholarship that any discussion of the name of God deserves, then I am willing to explain myslef again.

However I will not engage in your kind of hate filled rhetoric, because to do so over the name of God is itself a great blasphemy.

Sincereley,

MORGANITE

[G4-450]

However I will not engage in your kind of hate filled rhetoric, because to do so over the name of God is itself a great blasphemy.

Sincereley,

MORGANITE

Please give it up guy, fake fake fake.

Jehovah witnesses are nothing but a fake cult of satanic worshipers or simply pagan, you have proved to attack others here simply with reversed prejuduces to claim they are angry and un happy like you are. if you had any truth to your cult you would present it rather then using tactics, so where is the proof?

Prove it to the world if Jehovah's witnesses have anything to do with ABRAHAM and how and maybe we can talk?

[chrisl]

Prove it to the world if Jehovah's witnesses have anything to do with ABRAHAM and how and maybe we can talk?

Morganite, this guy thinks you're me. I went round and round with him and he never would agree on any point. Take my advice: give up now or you will waste a great deal of time. He is not reasonable--as you can probably tell.

Chris

[G4-450]

Morganite, this guy thinks you're me. I went round and round with him and he never would agree on any point. Take my advice: give up now or you will waste a great deal of time. He is not reasonable--as you can probably tell.

Chris

Chris or Morgan Stanley I do not care if your one person or 1 million Jehovah witnesses, I will not compromise with hypocrites who think they are right and everyone else has to agree with them like your doing around here.

So get yourselves a real religion starting with Abraham, where it all began and then come back with a clue, other wise your just another pagan cult looking for a leek in the scriptures to adapt a fake theory to justify your cause.

No one is angry and yes no one wants to mess with the one true God but you, so leave it like this and take it up with God not me.
:) there is no reasoning with people who invent religions and cults.

[chrisl]

See what I mean?

Chris

[Morganite]

hebrew was never a spoken living language until 1948

That is incorrect.

I do not know the source of your information, but it has misled you.

Classical (Biblical) Hebrew is among the Indo-Semitic language group and is extremely ancient.

The State of Israel did not come into existence until 1948, but the Hebrew tongue - Modern Hebrew - was maintained in Jewish communities worldwide, in both Sephardic and Ashkenazi communities.

Modern Hebrew is based directly on Ancient (Biblical) Hebrew with some differences in pronounciation.

they also did not use vowels

Of course they used vowels. They did not write them, but they used them. It is impossible to speak any language without using vowel sounds.

Certain of the Hebrew letters are known as vowel letters because when proounced, the vowel sounds they carried are enunciated. Check out, ayin, aleph, vav (or waw) which are used in this way, even down to the present time

MORGANITE

[Morganite]

I can see that there is an empty trolley in the room. However, it gives me something to do while I am waiting for the paint to dry.

Thank you for the heads up.

;)

Morganite

[chrisl]

I do not know the source of your information, but it has misled you.

You just had to kick over the beehive... [running for cover now] :D

Chris

[arcura]

It is Yahweh.
He has another name, God The Father, and another, Jesus Chrsit - God the son,
And another, Holy Spirit - all are together One Almighty God.
Thanks for asking.
Fred (arcura)