[rawolfe]

Let me start by saying I have read the sticky posts and several other posts on this issue, but I haven't seen anyone address our problem. This is a long post in order to answer many of the follow up questions or pointers that I am sure would be raised.

I have a 10 year old pug mix (Gracie) that I successfully house trained without issue. She now uses a doggie door and is able to go and come as she pleases and explore the back yard. Almost three weeks ago, we got a 11 week old miniature pinscher (Bruno) to keep her company during the day, as her feline companion that she grew up with passed away last year.

Bruno is now almost 14 weeks old. He was purchased at a locally owned pet store (mistake #1 - I always said I would adopt from rescues as Gracie has been such a great dog) that seemed to be very caring and good with animals.

We started crate training on day 1. The crate is a wire crate that is adjustable in size so it can grow with him. We have left him in the crate for periods while we were home to acclimate him and generally had no issues. We have tried covering his crate with a large blanket to make it more den like, but he pulled a good part of it inside the crate and tore it up. No bedding in the crate during the day. He does get a towel to overnight as our house tends to get cold at night and I have observed him shivering.

He is generally good about relieving himself outside when we are home to take him out. He is never in the kennel longer than 4-5 hours. My husband comes home daily for lunch to let him out. If he is unavailable, we have a trusted pet sitter that fills in.

Unfortunately, he continues to urinate in the crate whenever he is left in it. He is not of the "won't eliminate where he sleeps" breed. Yesterday, not only did he urinate, but he defecated wallowed in it like a pig. Literally, he was covered from head to toe in feces.

Our daily routine is this: 5:30 a.m. - we get up and immediately go outside. He will usually urinate at this point. LOTS of praise. We go in, get a snack, get breakfast ready for both dogs. Gracie is diabetic and has special needs, so she eats in our bedroom while we take Bruno's food into the bathroom so he can eat while we shower and get ready. Following breakfast, it is back outside and he will usually urinate and defecate and get more praise and another snack. We have 15-30 minutes of play time, then he is put in his kennel while we go to work (7:00 a.m.) . Husband comes home for lunch and arrives usually no later than 12:15. Outside immediately. This is where his stubborn streak starts. He has usually already urinated in his crate and will refuse to urinate or defecate outside. They stay out for up to 45 minutes with a "Mexican Stalemate" until Husband has to go back to work. I am home by 4:30 or 5 and he has usually urinated in his crate again. We go out immediately and he will often urinate after 15 minutes or so. Lots of praise, inside for a snack and dinner. He will usually alert us that he needs to go out by standing near the door and generally will eliminate. Sometimes he goes out as often as once or twice an hour in the evenings. Bed time is around 9:30 -10:00 and we go out before he is put up, sometimes with success, sometimes not. He usually cries at 12-12:30 a.m. I immediately take him out, but he has already urinated in the crate and refuses to go again. Cries again around 3:30-4, out we go, again, but has already urinated again and will refuse to go.

Yesterday, Husband beat me home (4:15) and found him covered in feces and urine after 3 hours in the crate. :eek: Last night, we moved his crate so that he had access to use the doggie door (which he is familiar with - he uses it to come inside after he has eliminated and will often chase Gracie outside using it), but he was still crated, thinking maybe he would go out before he cries so he doesn't have to sit in it. Still no dice. Woke me up twice and had already peed both times. We went outside both times for extended periods, but he sat down and refused to go.

On the other hand we have had some success with him going outside by himself and eliminating on rare occasions when we are home. (i.e. we say it's time to potty, he goes outside, we watch him from inside and he eliminates before coming back in. TONS of praise) He howls when we leave him alone in his crate, but generally self soothes after 5-10 minutes. I think there is a bit of separation anxiety going on, but he doesn't exhibit any other destructive behaviors when he is left alone. His "acting out" is by eliminating in his crate, but I don't know how to rectify that. :(

The vet says he does not have a urinary tract infection or any other health issue. I can't discipline him for eliminating in the crate, because we are not usually there when he does it.

So in sum - the routine has been the same every day for 3 weeks, yet we have 2 problems:

1) He continues to eliminate in his crate during the day and at night. The night time elimination is more frustrating, since we have established with him that if he cries, we will immediately get up and take him out -- we have done it every night for 3 weeks.

2) He doesn't sleep through the night or more than 3 hours at a time. We have tried everything from playing with him until he was exhausted (actually backfired because he was more restless when he finally passed out and woke us up 3 or 4 times as opposed to 2 and cried much more) to letting him just relax with us before going to bed. So now not only are we frustrated, we are exhausted and I see myself getting cranky with him.

He is a very sweet dog and gets along with Gracie well (although he is jealous of her if she is receiving attention). I know we are still early in the game, but I have not encountered this type of stubborn streak or behavior before and am at wits end. We don't want to allow him to continue in this patter and its clear that our current course is not working. Suggestions are welcome.

Thanks.

[labman]

The sticky mostly contains methods I have successful experience with. I have not had the sort of problems you are, and few people have posted back saying if what I suggested worked or not. The grid mentioned in the sticky will reduce the mess from urine, but is little help with stools. We have had problems with a new puppy not being able to hold it long enough. Many would be experts suggest a blanket over the crate. In the sticky I suggest choosing something the puppy can't pull in.

When you take him out, make him walk around, keeping him moving except when he stops to sniff around. If he won't move, try running past him in baby steps calling ''Go, go, go!'' in an excited voice. Movement stimulates the body, they can only walk and hold it so long. Very effective on bowel movements.

Try laying down in front of the crate as in the What a puppy needs section of the sticky. Try a Kong filled with peanut butter. I am slow to suggest such, but some people have found medications from the vet help.

Start obedience training. You will need to limit session to only a couple of repetitions of a command at a time at his age. The key to most behavior problems is approaching things using the dog's natural instincts. Dogs see all the people and dogs in the household as a pack with each having their own rank in the pack and a top dog. Life is much easier if the 2 legged pack members outrank the 4 legged ones. You can learn to play the role of top dog by reading some books or going to a good obedience class. A good obedience class or book is about you being top dog, not about rewarding standard commands with a treat. Start at Raising Your Dog with the Monks of New Skete Here are more ways to claim you place as pack leader:

Many people with similar questions never say where the puppy came from. I suspect many of them are pet store puppies forced to live in their filth for hours at a time. It takes a long time to regain their instincts for cleanliness.

''Elevation for small puppies: Sit on the floor and gently put your hands around your pup's middle, below his front legs, and lift him up. He is facing you. Hold him for 15 seconds. Repeat until he no longer struggles. If he is past 10-12 weeks, lift his front feet off the ground, but don't pick him up.

Cradling for small puppies: Hold your puppy gently on his back, as you would cradle a small baby. If he struggles, hold him firmly until he quiets for 10-15 seconds. With larger pups, you can do this as your sit on the floor, with your pup between your legs.

Quiet lying down: Place your pup on the floor on his side, with all 4 legs pointing away from you. Use your hands on his neck/shoulder area and middle, to hold him in this position. When he is quiet, praise him. Lengthen the time that you keep him quietly in this position. When he accepts this position well, handle his paws and muzzle, while keeping him quiet.''

The quotes mean this isn't my original work. It is copied from my Puppy Raising Manual. I have long used these or minor variations of them, and they are very effective. You may want to give him a belly rub while he is on his back too. Helps bonding. There is a big difference between him rolling over and demanding a belly rub, and you choosing a time to roll him over and rub his belly. The latter cements your place as pack leader.

Thank you for taking the time to give so many details. I hate suggesting things and have the person post back that they already tried it, and it didn't work. It is tough answering questions when people leave out the age, sex, spay/neuter, and breed.

[rawolfe]

Thanks Labman. I think my frustration lies in the fact that I have tried most of these suggestions and they have not yet worked.

I have tried laying down in front of the crate, which works to get him asleep, but then I fall asleep and we're in the same mess (i.e. he urinates, then wakes me up - apparently I sleep through the actual event).

We definitely keep try him moving when he goes out and try to be positive about it. He will usually get back up after he sits and refuses to eliminate, and will continue, but then sit again. It is just repetitive and can take over an hour sometimes. At 4:00 a.m. it's hard to have the gumption to stay up for more than 30 minutes with him. I was hoping he would understand the consequences (no treat, no extra time out of the crate with me, no having to sit in your own urine, etc.) of not eliminating when given the chance, but that has definitely not been the case.

He definitely understands the pecking order in the house. He accepts lying on his back and being held with his front paws up and hind legs on the floor standing. He also understands that Gracie is the alpha in the house, but does challenge her in a playful way sometimes. She generally puts him back in his place. He knows that howling will not get him his way with the 2 legged folks.

He is generally well behaved, with the exceptions I have noted above. He understands sit and come and will do both on command. He also understands no. We are still working on stay. He understands "go outside," as well and will head toward the door. Treats are not used in this training. We did use treats with Gracie when house breaking after awhile which seemed to be the breakthrough with her. We started Bruno on no treats and then changed to treats after week 2 and no progress. He was then quick to catch on to not eliminating in the common areas of the house. It's the crate that we seem to have issues with.

I haven't tried the Kong, but have used the brownish rawhides (I call them chewy sticks) which work at calming him for long periods. My guess is that the kong would exhibit the same result -- once he achieves his task and/or gets bored, he will urinate in his crate again.

Maybe it's an assertion of "his space...I can do what I want"? It's just so odd since I've never had a dog that didn't care if he was sitting or laying in his own urine. I'm at a loss on how to teach him that he would be better off clean.

Mistakes here and there would at least let me know that he is working on it and we are getting somewhere, but he seems content with this pattern. Perhaps I will try changing his schedule somewhat - not getting up when he cries at night, and see what happens. I may continue to put his crate in front of the doggie door and see if a breakthrough occurs with that. The biggest problem with that trick is that it is somewhat of a punishment to Gracie, as her freedom is then limited, so I will have to think about that one.

Perhaps this is something we will have to deal with until he is neutered. We'll keep plugging away. If we have a breakthrough, I will be sure to re-post and inform you on what worked - or if it was time and tribulation.

[RubyPitbull]

Many people with similar questions never say where the puppy came from. I suspect many of them are pet store puppies forced to live in their filth for hours at a time. it takes a long time to regain their instincts for cleanliness.

All of labman's advice is right on target and you should attempt the suggestions he has made that you might not have tried yet. However, the above quote from labman is in all likelihood the reason you are having such a tough time with Bruno. It may take a long time to break him from this habit. Another huge factor here is that your boy is still quite young. It is apparent that 3-5 hours crated without a potty break is just too long for your little guy. Puppies systems aren't developed enough to allow them to hold anything in. Is it at all possible for the next couple of months to find someone responsible who has the time to show up mid-morning (9:00 a.m.) to walk him, play with him, then walk him again? Basically give him an hour out of the crate until your husband gets home for lunch to give him another break. Then, have someone come in again by 2:00 or 2:30 to do another potty break & playtime break. If you don't have a trusted friend or neighbor who can do this, start searching for a dog walker in your area. You might find an enterprising teen in your neighborhood who is looking for a dog walking job. You can also check for a doggy day care facility which usually are willing to help people with this problem.

Regarding night time problems, unfortunately, you are going to have to bite the bullet for the next couple of months and set your clock to wake you about a half hour before his usual crying routines, so that you can catch him before he has his accidents. He is obviously making an attempt to tell you that he has to go potty. So, get to him before he starts vocalizing his distress. Young puppies just cannot make it through an entire night. So, you have to accept the fact that you will have to get up two times during the night to allow him to relieve himself to break his routine of elimination where he sleeps.

If you can manage to work the above into your schedule, within the next month you will find that he will start making the connection that he needs to "do his business" outside and not in his crate. You will also find that over the next couple of months, as he gets a little older he will start to have better control over his system, and his elimination times will start extending out for longer periods so you can adjust your night schedule to one walk per night, then, hallelujah, he will start making it through the night entirely.

Let us know how Bruno is doing.

[rawolfe]

Bruno is very stubborn and will refuse to go if he doesn't have to. BUT, looks like Bruno is making some progress, thanks to his adopted big sister. We moved the doggie door from our bedroom to the living room and noted that he would stand next to it when he wanted to go out. A little coaxing of "go outside" and he would go on his own without us there with him to encourage him. After he made that connection, we notice that he would follow Gracie outside whenever she went, then mimic her actions and do his business. Yesterday we did a trial run and left him and Gracie in the common area, shutting off all the bedroom doors for two hours while we ran a couple of errands. When we got home there were no messes and it was apparent he had gone outside on his own. The only problem we had all weekend was urination in the kitchen when he refused to go out in the middle of a thunderstorm. Saturday, there was no problem in the crate, but there was last night despite pre-emptive walks at 12:00 and 3:00.

Today will be another big test. He is again out and about with Gracie from 7 to 12 and we put his crate out there so he has a place to relax if he wants to. We noticed that he hung out in it once we moved it this morning. I'm thinking if this works, we may get another doggie door for the bedroom and try leaving his crate open at night to see if he will go out when he needs to. He is very adament about not doing anything if he doesn't need to, so even the preemptive walking isn't working at this point.

Thanks for the advice. I will continue to update if more advances are made.

[RubyPitbull]

rawolfe, I know how frustrating it can be to housebreak a puppy. When we haven't gone though it in a long time, we forget how much time and patience, it actually takes. Each dog is different, some take longer than others, and we just need to learn their signals. Closing off areas in the house is a very good idea. It sounds like your puppy is starting to make the connections he needs to. Just remember, he will have his good days and bad ones. Regarding thunderstorms and rain, most dogs do not like that kind of weather and will refuse to go outside. Don't be surprised if this is something that you cannot change. As he gets older, he will be able to hold it until the bad weather passes.

[labman]

Yes, in January 1994, it dropped to -20. Three month old Aster's housebreaking had a real setback.

I have had better luck with young puppies than Ruby suggests. Perhaps it is just an individual thing for yours, or more of a problem with puppies not carefully cared for like the ones I get. By getting him out before he needs to hold it very long, he may catch on to how nice a clean dry crate is. It is good to have somebody else with good experience in areas I lack.

[RubyPitbull]

labman, you actually hit the nail on the head in an earlier post with the problem Bruno is having. The fact that he was a store bought puppy and adjusted to urinating and excreting where he slept, could very well make Bruno a bit slower at picking up housebreaking. But, if he is like any of the min pins that I have come across, he is a smart little fellow and will learn. By the way rawolfe, I forgot to mention this earlier. Min pins do have a tendency to be a bit head strong. When you have the opportunity, it is important to socialize him with many breeds, large and small. Miniature Pinschers have a tendency to dislike many breeds that are larger than they are. They can become very aggressive with unknown dogs and people, if not socialized properly.

[labman]

A great description of my daughter's Lhasa/Min Pin. Since as a puppy in 02, he has been plagued with not only Labs, but German Shepherds, an Aussie Cattle dog, and what seems to be a Foxhound my son picked up from a shelter. He provided the only instance of fouling a crate I ever saw.

A Golden next? My friends' breeding stock is due to come in season anytime now. I am already scheming to send Holly off to school about Thanksgiving to create an opening for a Golden.