[Hope12]

Hello Everyone,

First, This is what I mean when speaking about the Trinity. What is it? It is the believe of 3 almighty, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All are not separate, but one. All are all knowing and omniscient.. No above the 0ther.

The Catholic encyclopedia says: “The trinity is the central teaching of the Christian religion.”

The Baptist encyclopedia says: “That Jesus is Jehovah or YHWH, and that the Holy spirit is Jehovah or YHWH.

Remember now Christians do not believe the Hindu religion to be the true religion and yet they also believe in Triad God’s as the Egyptians also believed in Triune Gods.

In 1553 they burned people alive for not believing in the Trinity. Was that Christian?

Isaiah 42:38 we read: Isaiah 42:8 (Young's Literal Translation)
8 I [am] Jehovah, this [is] My name, And Mine honour to another I give not, Nor My praise to graven images.

Genesis 17:1 (American Standard Version)
1 And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, Jehovah appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am God Almighty; walk before me, and be thou perfect. ALSO take a look at

Rev. 16:7 Jehovah the almighty. No where else in the Bible does it refer to anyone else as almighty. Jesus is referred to as mighty but not almighty. Isaiah 43:10 Jehovah says:

Isaiah 43:10 (American Standard Version)
10 Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Does this mean that, because Jesus Christ is prophetically called “Mighty God” at Isaiah 9:6, Jesus must be Jehovah? Again, the context answers, No! None of the idolatrous Gentile nations formed a god before Jehovah, because no one existed before Jehovah.
Nor would they at a future time form any real, live god that was able to prophesy. Isa. 46:9, 10

No where in the scriptures is Jesus referred to as “God the son” but he is referred to as “God’s son”. Take notice:

John 3:16 (New King James Version)
16 For God so loved the world that ‘He gave His only begotten Son,” that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Notice how Jesus himself said he is “the son of God” Not “”God the son.”
John 10:33-36 (New King James Version)
33 The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are gods”’?[a] 35 If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), 36 do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

In Matthew after Jesus’ baptism, Jehovah was heard to say, “you are my “Son” the beloved. Not “God my Son.” If all are equal then why did Jehovah continue in Matthew to state that he approved of Jesus. Notice:
Matthew 3:17 (New King James Version)
17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

Jehovah has not beginning or end. Jesus did. Notice Col 1:15
Colossians 1:15 (King James Version)
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

The Bible says God can not die. Jesus though was raised from the dead, showing Jesus is not God almighty because he could die and did and was resurrected.

Acts 3:15 (New King James Version)
15 and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses.

This is just some of the things I find very puzzling when it comes to the teaching of the Trinity. The Trinity doctrine is not compatible with the Bible teachings. If one loves God and believes the Bible to be the truth, how can 0ne believe the Trinity teaching. This information just touches on the lack of compatibility of the Bible and the trinity doctrine

Do you believe in the Trinity? If not, state why you do not believe in it. If you do believe in the doctrine of the trinity then state please why you do and how do you explain the above discrepancies?

Please state your understanding in the matter of the Trinity.

Take care, Hope12

[tamed]

Here's the way I see it, if we can be made up of three parts (spirit, soul & body or mind, body & soul - which ever one you prefer) then it would make sense that the God Who created us in His/Her own image also has three parts; Holy Spirit, Christ the Body, and God the Soul. The fact that there are different names attributed to God in the Bible I think had something to do with translation and the fact that those in the old testament had such a fear of God that they were afraid to call Him by name, the result of which was the YHWH (Yaweh, con't quite remember how it was derived) you were referring to which became loosely translated as Jehovah (I think, don't quote me my theology is a bit rusty). Hope that helps. I have noticed that you seem to be asking a lot of questions about Christianity, do you mind if I ask, are you a new convert or just curious?

[JoeCanada76]

Also would like to add that we as humans have one body but many different parts we have make a whole body. Same idea with trinity. It is One God, that is made up of different parts.

Joe

[speechlesstx]

Hope, I find it a lot more credible to accept the many passages that support the doctrine of the Trinity than to take one passage that says "with the voice of the archangel" and interpret that to mean Jesus is actually the archangel Michael.

[speechlesstx]

And one other thing Hope, the "thumbs down" icon for your question was a nice touch when asking us to discuss our beliefs. If one didn't know better it might make them think your mind is already made up and you think we're fools - before we ever say a word.

[Wangdoodle]

1 John 5:20 We also know that the son of God has come and has given us discernment to know the one who is true. And we are in the one who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life.

Matthew 3:16,17 After Jesus was baptized, he came up from the water and behold, the heavens were opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming upon him.And a voice came from the heavens, saying, "This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased."

Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon you, and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem throughout Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.

[Wangdoodle]

BWT, the doctrine of the Trinity has been documented to have been accepted as far back as 200 A.D.

[Marily]

I believe in the trinity- the three attributes of God Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but not three Gods. In other words three offices of God , God once lived in the Fatherhood, Sonship and now the Holy Spirit. And Father, Son and Holy Ghost is not God's name , his name is Jesus.

[Wangdoodle]

Hi Hope,

Here are some reasons I believe in the Doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

First, This is what I mean when speaking about the Trinity. What is it? It is the believe of 3 almighty, God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. All are not separate, but one. All are all knowing and omniscient.. No above the 0ther.

The Trinity can be summed up as this: God, who is one and unique in his infinite substance or nature, is three distinct persons, the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The one and only God is the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. God the Father is not God the Son, but generates the Son eternally, as the Son is eternally begotten. The Holy Spirit is neither the Father nor the Son, but a distinct person having his divine nature from the Father and the Son by eternal procession. The three divine persons are co-equal and co-eternal. So, here you have one God in three distinct persons.
John 14:16,26; 15:26; 16:7 - the Father and the Son send the Counselor, the Holy Spirit - Isaiah 9:6 - the Counselor is Mighty God. 1 Cor. 12:4-6 - there are varieties of gifts but the same Spirit, varieties of service but the same Lord, varieties of working but same God.

Rev. 16:7 Jehovah the almighty. No where else in the Bible does it refer to anyone else as almighty. Jesus is referred to as mighty but not almighty.

Matt. 4:7; Luke 4:12 - Jesus tells satan, "you shall not tempt the Lord your God" in reference to Himself.
1 John 5:20 Jesus is called True God. Also check out John 1:1-14. Focusing on vrs. 1-3 and 13 and 14.
John 8:58 - Jesus says, "Before Abraham was, I AM." Exodus 3:14 - "I AM" means "Yahweh," which means God. John 13:13 - Jesus says, "You call me Teacher and Lord and you are right for so I AM."

The Bible says God can not die. Jesus though was raised from the dead, showing Jesus is not God almighty because he could die and did and was resurrected.

Jesus is fully human and fully God (Hypostatic Union). His physical body was put to death, but his inner self is eternal and did not die.

Jehovah has not beginning or end. Jesus did. Notice Col 1:15
Colossians 1:15 (King James Version)
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Rev. 1:8 Jesus says he is the Alpha and Omega.

[shygrneyzs]

I would not rise to the bait, Hope. You have your views and I have mine and they do not agree. Peace.

[GraceAndKudos]

Firstly, I'd like to say that I do not believe in the Trinity, simply because after a long time of studying the Bible's contents, I have found no evidence to firmly confirm this teaching.. If it was rue it would be fundemental, therefore emphasised. Which it is not. Many can only go as far as tosay it is 'implied'.

Secondly, a Protestant publication states: “The word Trinity is not found in the Bible.. . It did not find a place formally in the theology of the church till the 4th century.” (The Illustrated Bible Dictionary) And a Catholic authority says that the Trinity “is not.. . Directly and immediately [the] word of God.”—New Catholic Encyclopedia.

Mark 13:32- “Of that day or that hour no ones knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.” (Of course, that would not be the case if Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were coequal, comprising one Godhead.)

John 14:28- “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

1 Cor. 11:3- “I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God.” (Clearly, then, Christ is not God, and God is of superior rank to Christ. It should be noted that this was written about 55 C.E. some 22 years after Jesus returned to heaven. So the truth here stated applies to the relationship between God and Christ in heaven.)

I needn't go on, we were given free will to accept what we choose, peace be with all. I hope I have perhaps cleared this u a little.
A

[tomder55]

It is not a provable proposition anymore than the WatchTower's interpretation of the bible ,and your subsequent beliefs in henotheism;.Both are matters of faith .Both concepts have sufficient biblical passages supporting them for those who like to split hairs and endlessly debate .Trinitarians are monotheists. We believe in one indivisible God.The Trinity doctrine states very clearly and deliberately that there is one God.Therefore there is no contradiction in the belief in the Trinity by a monotheist

[JoeCanada76]

Hope12 disagrees: Hi Joe, Totally disagree. According to the Bible there is only one True God.

You better not start trouble here like you have done else where. You asked for different opinions then you stick your DIRT in my face.

I never said there was more then one God. So stop twisting around my words and back off.

Joe

[JoeCanada76]

Also would like to add that we as humans have one body but many different parts we have make a whole body. Same idea with trinity. It is One God, that is made up of different parts.

Joe

Re Read my post Hope.
I am done here.

[Hope12]

BWT, the doctrine of the Trinity has been documented to have been accepted as far back as 200 A.D.

Btw: For every Scripture there is for the Trinity there are two against it's false teachings.

Notice:

Here are some scriptures misapplied to support the false teachings of the Trinity doctorine.
Genesis 1:1
Genesis 1:26
Deuteronomy 6:4
Isaiah 7:14
Isaiah 9:6
Isaiah 43:10-11
Isaiah 44:6
Micah 5:2
Matthew 1:23
Matthew 3:16, 17
Matthew 28:19
John 1:1
John 1:18
John 1:23
John 2:19
John 5:18
John 8:58
John 10:30
John 14:9
John 20:28
Acts 20:28
Romans 9:5
1 Corinthians 12:4-6
2 Corinthians 13:14
Phlippians 2:5, 6
Colossians 2:9
1 Timothy 3:16
Titus 2:13
Hebrews 1:6
Hebrews 1:8
Hebrews 1:10-12
1 John 5:7
1 John 5:20
Revelation 1:11
Revelation 1:17
Revelation 22:12-13

Total of 37 sited scripture used to support the Trinity teaching which are falsely interpreted and misunderstood.
Let’s first start with the fact that neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament.

Also Jesus’ early followers drew clear distinctions between God, Christ, and the holy spirit. In fact, they baptized disciples
(1) in the name of the Father,
(2) in the name of the Son, and
(3) in the name of the holy spirit
Not in the name of a Trinity. We need to differentiate between God, his Son, and the holy spirit.
(Matthew 28:19) Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,

The Encyclopedia Americana notes that the doctrine of the Trinity is considered to be “beyond the grasp of human reason.”
Many who accept the Trinity view it that same way. Monsignor Eugene Clark says: “God is one, and God is three. Since there is nothing like this in creation, we cannot understand it, but only accept it.”
Cardinal John O’Connor states: “We know that it is a very profound mystery, which we don’t begin to understand.”
And Pope John Paul II speaks of “the inscrutable mystery of God the Trinity.”
A Dictionary of Religious Knowledge says: “Precisely what that doctrine is, or rather precisely how it is to be explained, Trinitarians are not agreed among themselves.”
We can understand, then, why the New Catholic Encyclopedia observes: “There are few teachers of Trinitarian theology in Roman Catholic seminaries who have not been badgered at one time or another by the question, ‘But how does one preach the Trinity?’ And if the question is symptomatic of confusion on the part of the students, perhaps it is no less symptomatic of similar confusion on the part of their professors.”
The truth of that observation can be verified by going to a library and examining books that support the Trinity. Countless pages have been written attempting to explain it. Yet, after struggling through the labyrinth of confusing theological terms and explanations, investigators still come away unsatisfied.
Jus then how do Trinitarians explain the Trinity doctrine? Contending that since the Trinity is such a confusing mystery, it must have come from divine revelation creates another major problem. Why? Because divine revelation itself does not allow for such a view of God:
“God is not a God of confusion.”—1 Corinthians 14:33, Revised Standard Version (RS).
In view of that statement, would God be responsible for a doctrine about himself that is so confusing that even Hebrew, Greek, and Latin scholars cannot really explain it?
Do people have to be theologians ‘to know the only true God and Jesus Christ whom he has sent’? (John 17:3, JB) If that were the case, why did so few of the educated Jewish religious leaders recognize Jesus as the Messiah? His faithful disciples were, instead, humble farmers, fishermen, tax collectors, housewives. Those common people were so certain of what Jesus taught about God that they could teach it to others and were even willing to die for their belief.
Matthew 15:1-9;
Matthew 21:23-32, 43;
Matthew 23:13-36;
John 7:45-49;
Acts 4:13.

Does the Bible teach us about the Trinity? NO!
If the Trinity were true, it should be clearly and consistently presented in the Bible. Why? Because, as the apostles affirmed, the Bible is God’s revelation of himself to mankind. And since we need to know God to worship him acceptably, the Bible should be clear in telling us just who he is.
First century believers accepted the Scriptures as the authentic revelation of God. It was the basis for their beliefs, the final authority. For example, when the apostle Paul preached to people in the city of Beroea,
“they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.” Acts 17:10, 11.
What did prominent men of God at that time use as their authority?
Acts 17:2, 3 tells us: “According to Paul’s custom.. . He reasoned with them from the Scriptures, explaining and proving by references [from the Scriptures].”
Jesus himself set the example in using the Scriptures as the basis for his teaching, repeatedly saying:
“It is written.” “He interpreted to them things pertaining to himself in all the Scriptures.” Matthew 4:4, 7;
Luke 24:27.
Jesus, Paul, and first-century believers used the Scriptures as the foundation for their teaching. They knew that
“all Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16, 17;
1 Corinthians 4:6;
1 Thessalonians 2:13;
2 Peter 1:20, 21.
These scriptures that prove the trinity teaching as false.
(Deuteronomy 6:4)
(Galatians 3:20)
(1 Corinthians 8:4-6)
(Isaiah 42:8)
Exodus 20:2-3)
(Isaiah 45:5)
(Psalm 83:18)
(John 17:3)
(Genesis 17:1)
(Exodus 18:11)
(John 3:13)
(John 6:62)
(Colossians 1:15)
(Revelation 3:14)
(1 Corinthians 8:6)
(Matthew 4:1)
(Matthew 4:8-9)
(Deuteronomy 32:4)
(James 1:13)
(Matthew 4:10)
(1 Timothy 2:5-6)
(1 Corinthians 15:22)
(1 John 4:9)
(Hebrews 11:17)
(John 1:18)
(Colossians 1:15-17)
(Matthew 8:29)
(Matthew 27:54)
(Genesis 1:2)
(Psalm 143:10)
(Numbers 11:17)
(2 Peter 1:20-21)
(2 Timothy 3:16)
(Micah 3:8)
(2 Corinthians 4:7)
(Judges 14:6)
(Mark 1:10)
(Luke 5:17)
(Luke 7:35)
(Matthew 3:11)
(Mark 1:8)
(Ephesians 5:18)
(Acts 6:3)
(Acts 13:52)
(2 Corinthians 6:6)
(John 14:16)
(John 16:13)
(John 16:7-8)
’ (2 Corinthians 4:4)
(John 8:44)
( John 8:32.)

Here alone are just 52 scriptures that prove the trinity teach false. Pick anyone of these scriptures and tell me what version of the Bible you use and I will explain using your version of the scriptures how each one of the above scriptures prove the trinity teaching as false and not Bible based. One at a time. You pick the scripture and I will prove how it shows the trinity is false.

BTW: True Christianity started before 200AD.

Take care,
Hope12

[Hope12]

Hope12 disagrees: Hi Joe, Totally disagree. According to the Bible there is only one True God.

You better not start trouble here like you have done else where. You asked for different opinions then you stick your sh__ in my face.

I never said there was more then one God. So stop twisting around my words and back off.

Joe

Hello Joe,
I don't start trouble, just made a simple statement. I know that if you believe in the Trinity you believe that God the father, God the son, and God the holy Chost, Right? All are almighty and all are one, right?

My disagreement is not to start trouble but to exercise my freedom of speech by saying that I believe that there is one Almighty God, and that he is a separate being from His Son Jesus Christ. I also do not believe in the holy spirit as a being but as God's force or power. Therefore, yes we all have different body parts that work together but does not the Bible say that "God can not die?" That being the case and if God are the same but different parts of God, did part of God die?

You better not start trouble here like you have done else where. You asked for different opinions then you stick your sh__ in my face. "

I have never treated you badly nor do I as a Christian speak to anyone with such volugar language. You desire your freedom and you tell us about your opinion. Am I also not allowed that same freedom? If I am able to listen and read your opinion, should not I be given that same respect?

Take care,
Hope12

Why did you write this Joe? "

[JoeCanada76]

Hope, I appologize I might have used the wrong word sh__ . Although it is a real word and not really a curse word. It is used to describe dirt, crap and other things, I guess I could have came up with a better word, and I did.

So I changed the word to dirt. Sorry again.



Joe

[JoeCanada76]

Then again Hope, You need to apologize to me for twisting my words around to suit your beliefs. Making it sound like I believe in more then one God, which I never said, so pretty much you know the reason why I said what I said but you came here for one mission and that is to hammer people over the head with your preaching style posts.

[Hope12]

Hello Joe,

I will humble myself and apologize if I have made your agry by giving my opinion. I am of the understanding that a Father is not his son, as a Son is not his father. They both can not be the same. You are claiming Jesus is God and I made the statement that God is one God the father. Not Jesus but the God almighty, the Father.



I quote what you said: “Also would like to add that we as humans have one body but many different parts we have make a whole body. Same idea with trinity. It is One God, that is made up of different parts.”

Do I understand you then to say that there is God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy spirit? All the same God?

If I am understanding that correctly then I do owe you an apology. You are claiming then that there is one God but three different and equal personalities but all the same being. Correct?

I do not believe this though because Jesus died and if he is God or even a part of God it would make the Bible inaccurate. The bible calls Jesus God’s only begotten son.

(1 John 4:7-9).. . Beloved ones, let us continue loving one another, because love is from God, and everyone who loves has been born from God and gains the knowledge of God. 8 He that does not love has not come to know God, because God is love. 9 By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.. .

How can part of God die? Where and how can that be Joe? That is what I meant by there is only one God and Jesus is not God. That is my belief.

I am sorry if my stating my opinion and understanding of the "Bible got you so angry. I only was adding my understanding to everyone else's understanding. I am not here to cause trouble and you need to please calm down and remember that not all people who give their opinion will always agree. I in the future will stay away from commenting to anything you post, if that is what you want me to do. I certaintly did not come to this board to argue with you or anyone else.

Take care,
Hope12

[Wangdoodle]

BTW: True Christianity started before 200AD.

Amen to that! Yes, true Christianity started before 200 A.D. My point in referencing this date is to show just that. This was in reference to “Tertullian against Praxeas”, a document dated 213 A.D. (pardon me for being off 13 yrs.) This was in defense of the Trinity, and shows that the Trinity was being taught long before then.

Remember that the teaching of Christianity was preached by the Apostles before they were written down in what would become the New Testament. The New Testament is a reflection of these teachings. Calling Jesus the Son of God does not contradict the understanding of his divinity or the understanding of the Trinity.
I understand that there are different interpretations of Scripture, which is why there are so many denominations.

P.S. You put together a very nice presentation. However, I just disagree. :)