[ActionJackson]

Is the Old Testament God's Word? Or has it lost its savor? Is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New Testament? Should students of the Bible even bother reading the Old Testament? Is the Old Testament even part of the Bible? Lots of questions based on one topic.

[inthebox]

Yes - 2 timothy 3:16
Seems like it.
Yes to the rest - Hewbrews and Romans make a lot of references to the Old Testament and the heroes of faith.


Grace and Peace

[inthebox]

Also, Jesus quoted scripture, correctly, in His temptation by the devil.




Grace and Peace

[shygrneyzs]

"Bother" to read the Old Testament? The word, "bother" in reference to reading the Old Testament is very troublesome to me. How can I accept and understand the fulfillment of Christ in the New Testament if I do not know and believe the Old Testment? The Old Testament will never lose any of it's savor. Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, and Jacob the same God of Peter and Paul, et. al. Most definitely YES. There has only ever been the One God. There was not, are not, a separate God for each Testament.

[ActionJackson]

"Bother" to read the Old Testament? The word, "bother" in reference to reading the Old Testament is very troublesome to me. How can I accept and understand the fulfillment of Christ in the New Testament if I do not know and believe the Old Testment? The Old Testament will never lose any of it's savor. Is the God of Abraham, Isaac, Moses, and Jacob the same God of Peter and Paul, et. al.? Most definitely YES. There has only ever been the One God. There was not, are not, a separate God for each Testament.

Thank you. I have come across so much dissent concerning the Old Testament that I was beginning to wonder if everyone had lost his or her marbles. Good post. I fully agree. I love the entire Bible from start to finish. It is the greatest Book on earth and yet it seems that a number of Christians almost despise its teachings. If there is some law that interferes with their personal life, then you hear "well that's from the Old Testament...it doesn't say it in the New." There seems to be this desire to pit one against the other when the Author of both is God Almighty. It's really quite sad actually. I didn't realize that there was so much confusion within the "Christian" community. I've had "Christians" screaming at me (using all capital letters) and others calling me names just because I say something that doesn't jive with their long held traditional beliefs. I pray that Christ reveals the truth to all of us.

[shygrneyzs]

I am sure we all will be mightily surprised when Christ comes back to claim His people.

[DrJ]

Gods Word? Of course
The same God? Of course
Should we bother? Of course
Part of the Bible? Of course

Still valid in its entirety? Hmmmmm...

I believe this stemmed from the "pork" conversation I noticed. Is all of Gods Word still valid today?

Do you stand behind EVERYTHING that the bible teaches or says? If not, who decides what stays and what goes?

[ActionJackson]

Gods Word? of course
the same God? of course
should we bother? of course
part of the Bible? of course
Still valid in its entirety? hmmmmm.....
I believe this stemmed from the "pork" conversation I noticed. Is all of Gods Word still valid today?
Do you stand behind EVERYTHING that the bible teaches or says? If not, who decides what stays and what goes?

Not only did it stem from the "pork" conversation (which, by the way was blown way out of proportion) but from the moral Laws of God. There's even one post that suggests that by being baptized, we are insulting Jesus Christ. So it's not even a discussion about the Old Testament vs. the New but the general schisms I've noticed since I've been here. I know that I am guilty of being argumentative at times. I've bitten my tongue so many times it's almost severed. But the screaming (all capital letters) and the name calling that I've gotten from other Christians is what has me the most concerned. I thought about it off and on all day today and I'm not sure what to make of it. Anyhoo, not much I'm going to be able to do about it I suppose.

[Tessy777]

Hey, I put a few words in capital letters for emphasis, so you could get the feel of the post but I never screamed. NOT ever... I like you... even if you are mostly always completely wrong.

P.S. of course the old testament is VALID... I LOVE ALL of God's word... all of it, regardless of what you think. I just am a Christian saved by GRACE... (not Baptism) and I understand the difference between LAW and GRACE. I hope I that didn't hurt your ears.

[DrJ]

This discussion will undoubtedly get to this letter that floats around the internet. While an obvious attack on the Old Testament, it does reflect some of the questionable "Laws" from the same Book. (thanks NK for the link to this)

Dear Dr. Laura,

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and I try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind him that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the specific laws and how to best follow them.

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?

I) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help.

Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.

[Marily]

The GOD of the old testament is the JEHOVAH of the new testament. The bible is directed to the bride of Christ. It is God in written form, and yes, the whole bible is valid.

[Capuchin]

I'm very confused by some of the discussion here.

If God is omniscient, and the bible is God's word, then how can the old testament fail to be valid today? If people think it is not valid today, then surely you must question the whole of the bible, in fact the whole belief of god as an omniscient being?

[ActionJackson]

The GOD of the old testament is the JEHOVAH of the new testament. The bible is directed to the bride of Christ. It is God in written form, and yes, the whole bible is valid.

Thanks Marily. So far, you're the third or fourth Christian who believes that. It's good to know. The Old Testament is very significant, very fresh and alive, and very beneficial to modern Christians. The history alone should excite the reader (although, admittedly, there are some dry areas). God bless you, your family, and your community.

[Capuchin]

I thought Jehovah and God were the same?

[Marily]

Jehovah and Jesus are one and the same

[ActionJackson]

a) When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord (Lev 1:9). The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
Jesus Christ's death of the cross was the final offering and the ultimate sacrifice. No need to burn bull in the backyard, unless you're having a BBQ.

b) I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
My first ancestor who came to America in the early 1600s came as an endentured slave. It was not uncommon for those who were in debt to willingly go into slavery to pay their way out of debt. It was a temporary condition. Romans 13 discusses being subject to the civil authorities. If the government you are under does not allow slavery then we are to obey that government. Nowhere in Exodus or anywhere else was it commanded that we should sell loved ones into salvery.

c) I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness (Lev 15:19-24). The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
No need to ask a woman if she is experiencing her cycle. If she has any scruples, she will handle the matter on her own and discretely.

d) Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?
Bondmen and bondwomen were servants. They worked for room and board. They answered to whomever offered room and board and owned the property. Sounds like I fall into that category. I have to answer to my boss and I get paid enough to pay for room and board. No mention of anyone getting whipped or beaten. Fact is, there are tons of American children abducted each year and sold into slavery in other countries and I bet they aren't being treated as well as the servants of the Old Testament.

e) I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?
One man was put to death for working on the Sabbath. It shows how important it is to obey God's commands. God must take the Sabbath very seriously if He was willing to go to those lengths. There are other passages that state that the wages of sin is death; therefore, Sabbath-breaking doesn't stand alone in that category.

f) A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an Abomination (Lev 11:10), it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?
It is a lesser "abomination" than homosexuality. It's hard to beat that abomination. Abstaining from shell fish, pork, etc. was a way to stay healthy. God created some creatures to clean up the messes left on earth or in the water. Those creatures eat up all the dead and decaying matter to help remove diseases and bacteria. Eat them if you must but if you have a choice, try something cleaner.

g) Lev 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?
This whole chapter concerns itself with the Levitical priesthood which was a shadow of things to come. Christ, our Priest of priests, was perfect.

h) Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev 19:27. How should they die?
Again, speaking of the priesthood and not every man.

I) I know from Lev 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
Correct. Pigs are very unclean and full of parasites. Even touching them can be dangerous to your health. However, by the time the football skin has been processed, cleaned, tanned, etc., it won't have the effect that skin dripping with blood would.

j) My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? (Lev 24:10-16) Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
This speaks of the adulteration of God's creation. God's blueprint or design was specific. The first page of Genesis speaks of plants with "seed in itself." Even the New Testament says not to yoke two different animals together unequally. None of the above will send someone to hell. It's just basic common sense.

Obvioulsy, the person who compiled these questions doesn't have much use for God or for rules. He has a bone to pick. Not uncommon and to be expected. My concern when I posted the question for this thread had to do with how Christians view the Bible, not how Christ haters viewed it.

[ActionJackson]

I thought Jehovah and God were the same?

He is. God has several different titles but there is only one God. There can be only one God.

[inthebox]

This discussion will undoubtedly get to this letter that floats around the internet. While an obvious attack on the Old Testament, it does reflect some of the questionable "Laws" from the same Book. (thanks NK for the link to this)

From Matthew 5:
17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished.

"everything accomplished" is referring to the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ.

again from Matthew this time chapter 22

34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

Grace and Peace

[inthebox]

again this is in reply to the "Dr Laura" letter post #10

Galatians 4

4But when the time had fully come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under law, 5to redeem those under law, that we might receive the full rights of sons.

Galatians 5:

3Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5But by faith we eagerly await through the Spirit the righteousness for which we hope. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love.
13You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature[a]; rather, serve one another in love. 14The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."[b] 15If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. 25Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.


Galatians was written by St Paul to the church of Galatia, that still thought the legalistic aspect, as typified by the "Dr Laura letter," was necessary for salvation.




Grace and Peace

[Capuchin]

He is. God has several different titles but there is only one God. There can be only one God.

Oh okay so Marily was just pointing out that Jesus and Jehovah and God are just different names for the same guy with the beard used in different parts of the bible!

I get it now! :)