[ActionJackson]

ok, ya caught me on a technicality... of course, they all "try" to... not one has actually accomplished it (granted, I realize this leaves open a response of "One Man did... His name is Jesus Christ" but I tend to doubt (and no one can prove) that Jesus would have treated people some of the ways the Old Book tells us to.

I believe that the Old Testament pointed men in the right direction but imperfect men often erred in their attempt to walk a perfect life. They were trying to follow the perfect Law of God with an imperfect and sinful body. They tried to atone for their sins by sacrificing animals which was a temporary fix. They failed so miserably that the 10 tribes of northern Israel was divorced by God and went into Assyrian captivity. The southern tribes of Judah, Benjamin, and part of Levi went into Babylonian captivity. God, however, loved His children enough to send His only begotten Son to be our example and to save us from the promise of eternal death. Instead, we received eternal life if we believed in Him, repented of our sins, were baptized, and continued to work towards perfection. However, Christ does promise to bring justice to this earth and it won't be a pretty sight.

I understand that this is how it was written. But I do not believe that this is what we read today.

That's where faith comes in and diligent study. The Bible has to be read in context and cross references should be checked. I have concordances, lexicons, many versions of the Bible, dictionaries, and commentaries. I'm not a Catholic but I have the Catholic Encyclopedia and I'm not Jewish but I have a Jewish Encyclopedia. I truly want to know what is true. I do not let myself be lead astray by men. On the other hand, some of the most profound truths I have learned have come from the mouths of men. It all boils down to faith or the lack thereof.

His Word can be obtain in more ways that one. Dont put too much faith in the works of man to determine what you believe to be the True Word of God.

See my response above. I have faith in God and I have faith that God will sometimes use men for His purposes. Test everything by the Word of God. It either stands for falls.

There is simply no way to know if what you read today is exactly as it was written. As I am sure, these 20 different versions that you read were all just written in the past century. but what of the centuries and centuries of corrupt man before this?

And there is absolutely no way to know if DrJizzle's or ActionJackson's assumptions or conclusions about life can be fully trusted. We are men. Our moods swing. Our emotions can easily play a part in our decision making processes. The Bible remains the same. It's constant and it is clearly a good Book. It tries to help, not hurt, people. I think some people believe that I believe that we need to live solely by the Old Testament because I defend it so vehemently. Not the case. I believe that it is the Word of God but I believe that Jesus Christ is the example that we should live by and that the moral Laws (10 Commandments) are still valid. The King James was penned in 1611 and the Geneva Bible even earlier. I have both.

The ONE noted "unforgivable sin" is is, yes, blasphemy toward God. However, the depth of this is arguable (and for another thread), simply because there were those in the NT that could have been considered blasphemous toward God but were forgiven. True blasphemy is a deeper issue. And for that fact, it is in a league of its own. Just because ONE sin is considered unforgivable does not mean in any way that the rest are on a sliding scale. That is simply in the mind of man. Penalties given by man have no bearing on their weight according to God. The wages of sin is death. The wages of sin is death (just in case you didnt catch that). It does not say that this one is death... this one is just a spanking... this one you will have to hop on one leg and cluck like a chicken for... the wages of sin is death, which Christ paid for.

Blasphemy at some depth or point is unforgiveable so my argument stands. My original post stated or implied a couple of things: 1) If the sin of blasphemy of the Holy Ghost is the only unforgiveable sin, then all other sins are forgiveable and 2) that the wages of sin (all sin) is death. However, America's early laws were founded on biblical principles (we used to be considered a Christians country). The crime of murder required a punishment of death while the crime of stealing a man's rake might require some hard labor or a monetary penalty of double the worth of the object taken. Oh, and if you looked at the pastor's wife the wrong way, you had to hop on one leg and cluck like a chicken.


True... but nonetheless, church and religion still mean nothing...

To you!

no more than the church of ActionJackson

You have no church while I have the benefit of the Christ's living church. Where two or more are gathered together for My (Christ's) namesake.

Nor do those that devote their life to Him.

I'll take my chances and you can certainly take yours. You have free will.

100% agreed. And do you think you would have come to realize the truth in the few short years you would have had left? Most wouldnt have had a chance until hundreds of years later when it became "accepted".

Absolutely! More so then than now. The early Christians were heavily persecuted by just about every faction or religious institution in vogue at the time and by the Roman government. Later, the persecution continued and the torture and murder of innocent Christians continued at the hands of the Roman church (the Dark Ages). Read Foxes Book of Martyrs if you have any doubts. Much Christian blood was spilt. That's when a Christian's faith was truly tested. Those who remained faithful were true Christians indeed. Now all anyone has to do is believe, skip the nonsensical rituals of baptism and communion then go to their favorite pub for a few drinks and some line dancing.

Well, again.. arguable. Lets look at some other abominations from the Bible:

I doubt very much that anything I said wouldn't be "arguable."

Of course, adultery (Lev 18:20), sex with animals (Lev 18:23), remarrying one's wife after she's had another husband in between (Deut 24:4), or approaching any woman during the time of her "uncleanness" (Lev 18:19). Cross-dressing is out (Deut 22:5), and that includes Halloween costumes, slacks on women, bib overalls on little girls, or a wife wearing her husband's favorite Oxford buttondown. And more on buttondowns in a moment.Other abominations include tarot readings, glancing at your horoscope, trimming one's beard, and getting a tattoo, even if it says, "Mom" (Lev 19:26-28). Haughty eyes (Prov 6:17) and telling lies (Prov 6:17, 12:22) are big abominations. Being untruthful also includes false weights and measures (Prov 11:1), or any other dishonesty in business. "Everyone who acts unjustly is an abomination to the LORD your God" (Prov 11:16).

Most of the above (accept a few that you made up) were unacceptable at one time. But Christians generally seek peace. You hear many of them say things like "can't we all just get along" or "can't we just accept others for who they are?" It's very common. The next thing that happens (in very, very small increments) is that Christians relax on one or another of their standards. It then becomes easier to "get along" and it's life becomes a little "easier" for the Christian. Then another little change occurs, then another, then another and ten years later, a community or a church lives by a set of rules slightly but significantly different than their parents did. You get the point. Look at life in America today vs. life in America in the 50s. Big difference. So it comes as no surprise that people today look at the rules of yesterday askance. If we were living in those times then the rules that everyone lived by wouldn't be a big deal at all. A Communist philosphy says, "two steps forward and one step back." They are willing to take a step back but it is always in preparation for the two steps forward. They have certainly made headway because they don't waver but remain focused and steadfast.

So in the eyes of the Lord, you are no better than an honest, Christian homosexual (And i mean that with absolutely no disrespect to you, ActionJackson, or to any homosexual on this planet)... it was just a point of referrence.

If you have nothing against homosexuality, then how could you have meant any disrespect. However, "Christian homosexual" is an oxymoron. A conflict in terms. If a homosexual repents of his sinful practice then he can certainly accept Christ and be forgiven. It would be like calling a killer a "Christian murderer." No such thing. However, I had a prison ministry for a long time and I know of some murderes who repented and became Christians. The thief crucified next to Jesus was forgiven.

[inthebox]

DrJizzle:


"So in the eyes of the Lord, you are no better than a... Christian homosexual... it was just a point of referrence."

Saved or not, if you struggle with porn, or gluttony, or materialism, or anger, Etc. reminds us we still are flesh and blood [Romans 7] and it is the Lord to rely on, not "church" or "religion" or toeing the line, fearing breaking a single rule.

With all respect, is this what you mean?


Grace and Peace

[DrJ]

A few different things here...

poppa0777, let me begin by saying thank you for your insight and especially for the change of tone to your last post. I do not mean to argue or be rude in any way and I try to keep the tone to my posts civil. Seeing as how that was your first post to me, I felt it came off a bit harsh. I have been attacked many times so forgive me for being a bit out of line in my previous response. I want you to know that I am not here to preach my beliefs. I keep my personal beliefs to myself. However, I will always question... everything.

ActionJackson First, that was just a clause to show show that this is just a discussion... I didn't want it to turn ugly. Beyond that, there are many churches that accept homosexuality. I can understand why. I can also understand how there are many that don't. For those that do not, what I want to understand is how is it justified. There are other things that are considered an abomination in the OT and yet I don't see any religious battles to preserve them. Where is the hierarchy listed? Using the same example as before (which has yet to be answered by anyone), how is it okay to approach a woman on her menstrual cycle when it is clearly stated not to? Why is it okay to eat pork/shellfish when the OT clearly states not to? I understand that they NT sort of reverse that one... but why does it? Why do they conflict? Masturbation is a good example... are you telling me that there is no such thing as a Christian masturbater? Or a Christian condom user? It is clearly written not to spill your seed.

inthebox ummmm... yes and no. yes, in the fact that it is the Lord to rely on... not the church... not your (the universal your) religion... but much more simple. No, in the sense that am I not necessarily stating that homosexuality is something to struggle with such as porn, gluttony, etc. Is it? As in my examples with ActionJackson, why is it not just something that has ended up being okay when other things continue to be repressed?

[ActionJackson]

ActionJackson First, that was just a clause to show show that this is just a discussion... I didnt want it to turn ugly. Beyond that, there are many churches that accept homosexuality. I can understand why. I can also understand how there are many that dont. For those that do not, what I want to understand is how is it justified. There are other things that are considered an abomination in the OT and yet I dont see any religious battles to preserve them. Where is the hierarchy listed? Using the same example as before (which has yet to be answered by anyone), how is it okay to approach a woman on her menstrual cycle when it is clearly stated not to? Why is it okay to eat pork/shellfish when the OT clearly states not to? I understand that they NT sort of reverse that one... but why does it? Why do they conflict? Masturbation is a good example.... are you telling me that there is no such thing as a Christian masturbater? Or a Christian condom user? It is clearly written not to spill your seed.

I don't know of any churches that stand at the door of the church and say "no homosexuals are allowed." That's not to say that they don't exist but I don't personally know of any. I do, however, know of churches that teach that homosexuality is wrong and they base that teaching on the Bible. Of course sinners are allowed in a Christian church if their purpose for going is to learn God's Word and to better themselves and to seek a closer relationship with God. If I were a pastor of a church, I would want people to accept Christ and to repent of their sins. I think that's the primary goals or at least two of the primary goals of the Christian church as a whole. However, if someone came into my church and openly practiced their sinful lifestyle (whether it be pickpocketing or murder or homosexuality) I would have that person removed as he or she would be a distraction. I find it wholly wrong to have openly "gay" individuals leading a Christian church. That, in my opinion, is a mockery of the Christian religion.

Actually, I did touch on your "should someone approach a woman on her cylce" question. Like I said before, it is just as wrong today to break God's Laws as it was when He first had them written down. However, over time, Christians have relaxed and have allowed themselves to compromise their beliefs for the sake of "getting along" with non-believers who "just can't understand why this or that is against the rules." Christians have been backing up for many years on many fronts as the minions of Satan advance. We are in a spiritual battle; a battle of good vs. evil. Sounds simplistic but it's true nonetheless. A woman's cycle is a time for cleansing and it's best to let her be during that time period (for a couple of reasons that I can think of). As for pork and shellfish, I don't eat either for a couple of reasons. 1) Out of obedience to God's law and 2) After asking myself why God would make such a law (I was raised eating pork) I began to study the issue and found that pork, catfish, shellfish, etc. are vacuum cleaners designed to eat up dead and decaying matter. There are, however, many New-Testament-only Christians who truly believe that God changed His mind on that issue, flip-flopped, and decided all-of-a-sudden that pork was now clean and was no longer a vacuum cleaner. Clearly, I'm not in that camp.

It's NOT okay to "spill your seed." If a person uses self control and uses his plumbing for the purpose that God intended, then there wouldn't be any spilling of seed. The "spilling of seed" comes as a result of a person's imaginations; the lust of the eyes; the lust of the flesh; and the pride of life. "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever." I John 2:16,17 If a person is lost in the sins which you describe I urge them to overcome thier sin through prayer and self control. God will forgive you if you ask Him and seek diligently to overcome.