[classyT]

I tried to Google this and couldn't find the answer. I recently learned that Catholics believe Mary was divine after she became pregnant with the Lord Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. My question is this... do Catholics believe that once the Pope is appointed to that position HE becomes divine? If this is a stupid question then I apologize. I really am curious because I was reading an article where he is called The Holy Father. Not being raise catholic, I was stunned by that title.

[ROLCAM]

May I humbly suggest you read:-

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: The Pope

[classyT]

I will read it. I did scan it... not sure it gives me the direct answer I was looking for. Thanks though

[ROLCAM]

Please do not be stunned!

In all countries the key is the symbol of authority. Thus, Christ's words are a promise that He will confer on Peter supreme power to govern the Church. Peter is to be His vicegerent, to rule in His place.

[Fr_Chuck]

What do you mean by "divine" They believe in what the bible says that she is blessed above all women.

The church does not teach that she has any saving powers, and the pope is not "divine" and is not infalliable in his everyday life.

Where are you "hearing" or learning about Catholics

[dwashbur]

what do you mean by "divine" They beleive in what the bible says that she is blessed above all women.

[snip]

I hope it's not too far from the topic, but if I may quasi-deflect for a moment, I'm interested to know: what exactly does your church mean by "blessed" in this context?

[RickJ]

I tried to google this and couldn't find the answer. I recently learned that Catholics believe Mary was divine after she became pregnant with the Lord Jesus by the power of the Holy Spirit. My question is this...do Catholics believe that once the Pope is appointed to that positon HE becomes divine? If this is a stupid question then I apologize. I really am curious because I was reading an article where he is called The Holy Father. Not being raise catholic, I was stunned by that title.

Mary is NOT divine, period. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

The Pope is NOT divine, period. This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

Beware of what you read from other than the Bible and the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

Anything else may or may not be correct.

If you have questions about what the Catholic church REALLY teaches, refer to the Catechism: See the 2nd, 3rd and 4th links here: Catholic Truths: Ecumenical Apolgetics. Links

[classyT]

what do you mean by "divine" They beleive in what the bible says that she is blessed above all women.

The church does not teach that she has any saving powers, and the pope is not "divine" and is not infalliable in his everyday life.

Where are you "hearing" or learning about Catholics

Fr_Chuck,

I guess I thought I read it on this site. Maybe divine is the wrong word.. but what I meant was that she became sinless.. or unable to sin after she became pregnant. Did I get that wrong? I don't know, it is what I thought I read. So then Catholics believe that both the Pope and Mary could/can sin?

[JoeT777]

[snip]

I hope it's not too far from the topic, but if I may quasi-deflect for a moment, I'm interested to know: what exactly does your church mean by "blessed" in this context?

When referring to the Virgin Mary as 'blessed' the saying looks to the 'actual graces' conferred by God, i.e. being made immaculate. Calling her blessed indicates the sanctification bestowed on her; “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.” (Luke 1:28)

JoeT

[dwashbur]

When referring to the Virgin Mary as ‘blessed’ the saying looks to the 'actual graces' conferred by God, i.e., being made immaculate. Calling her blessed indicates the sanctification bestowed on her; “Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you: blessed are you among women.” (Luke 1:28)

JoeT

Do you know what the basis of that translation/interpretation is? And Fr. Chuck and others, do you agree?

[RickJ]

Fr_Chuck,

I guess i thought i read it on this site. Maybe divine is the wrong word..but what i meant was that she became sinless..or unable to sin after she became pregnant. Did I get that wrong? I don't know, it is what i thought i read. So then Catholics believe that both the Pope and Mary could/can sin?

Mary did not sin. This is an issue of tradition: A belief that we Catholics have.

As for the Pope: Yes he does sin. He would be the first to admit it.

[RickJ]

Do you know what the basis of that translation/interpretation is? And Fr. Chuck and others, do you agree?

Check out the instances of the word used in the Bible:
Blessed (338 Occurrences)

"Favored" is the meaning when referring to other than God.

And compare those uses to that which was used about Mary.

[JoeT777]

Do you know what the basis of that translation/interpretation is? And Fr. Chuck and others, do you agree?

The version I used is the one authorized by the Council of Trent, the Latin Vulgate. The English translation is 16th century (I think – maybe 17th century) Douay-Rheims Bible. Along with the DR version, the Latin and Greek can be found at the following site: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Luke 1.

JoeT

[RickJ]

For the sake of argument, we can use almost any version: to compare the greek (Koine) word that was used about Mary with the other uses of the word when the reference is to a person (as opposed to uses of the word about God).

[dwashbur]

Check out the instances of the word used in the Bible:
Blessed (338 Occurrences)

"Favored" is the meaning when referring to other than God.

And compare those uses to that which was used about Mary.

Unfortunately, that list doesn't make any distinction among the different Greek terms that are rendered by "blessed." There are actually three: the most common one just means "happy." Another means "well spoken-of," basically having a good reputation. This one is actually used in reference to God several times by Paul. And the one used of Mary in Luke 1:28 means "giving favor to." in Ephesians 1:6, Paul uses the same term to describe how God has "favored" all of us. So I don't see how you can get any special "favor" given to Mary out of this word; it sure doesn't have anything to do with being immaculate or sinless, because if it did, it would describe all of us.

[RickJ]

Unfortunately, that list doesn't make any distinction among the different Greek terms that are rendered by "blessed." There are actually three: the most common one just means "happy." Another means "well spoken-of," basically having a good reputation. This one is actually used in reference to God several times by Paul. And the one used of Mary in Luke 1:28 means "giving favor to." in Ephesians 1:6, Paul uses the same term to describe how God has "favored" all of us. So I don't see how you can get any special "favor" given to Mary out of this word; it sure doesn't have anything to do with being immaculate or sinless, because if it did, it would describe all of us.

All we can do (since the Koine is no longer used) is compare the uses. "Favored", as I suggested, is not so different than the definitions (given by current fold for that old language) that you gave, is it?

The bottom line: Mary is NOT divine. She clearly (according to the Biblical texts) has a "special" status (otherwise St. Gabriel would have picked someone else) but beyond that, it up to debate.

We Catholics (which is who the question was asked of) have our own opinion and that is what we have given here to answer the question that was directed to us.

[dwashbur]

All we can do (since the Koine is no longer used) is compare the uses. "Favored", as I suggested, is not so different than the definitions (given by current fold for that old language) that you gave, is it?

The problem isn't the word "favored," it's what you read into the meaning of "favored."

The bottom line: Mary is NOT divine. She clearly (according to the Biblical texts) has a "special" status (otherwise St. Gabriel would have picked someone else) but beyond that, it up to debate.

I agree she's not divine. But the question then becomes what that "special status" is. If we look at the actual biblical text, the status seems to be based on her lineage as much as anything else. But after Jesus' birth and growth to adulthood, there doesn't seem to be anything special about her. And there was no need for her to be immaculate in order to give birth to Jesus.

We Catholics (which is who the question was asked of) have our own opinion and that is what we have given here to answer the question that was directed to us.

Agreed, and we do agree that she's not, nor was she ever, "divine." Chosen, unbelievable privileged, definitely. But still human.

[dwashbur]

The version I used is the one authorized by the Council of Trent, the Latin Vulgate. The English translation is 16th century (I think – maybe 17th century) Douay-Rheims Bible. Along with the DR version, the Latin and Greek can be found at the following site: NEW ADVENT BIBLE: Luke 1.

JoeT

There are some problems with the DR version. In this case, "full of grace" is misleading and is actually based on the Latin rather than on the original Greek text, which just says "favored."

I noticed another problem in an earlier thread on this topic, where you quoted Romans 5:14:


“But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.” Who are those that "have not sinned"?

There is no justification at all for putting the comma after "sinned," because the sentence clearly says, even in the Latin text, "those who did not sin after the manner of Adam," i.e. those who didn't commit the same sin that Adam did. I'm not sure who put that comma there or why, but it's wrong.

So there are some big problems with the translation you're using. "I'm not judging, I'm just saying..." :D

[JoeT777]

There are some problems with the DR version. In this case, "full of grace" is misleading and is actually based on the Latin rather than on the original Greek text, which just says "favored."

I noticed another problem in an earlier thread on this topic, where you quoted Romans 5:14:


“But death reigned from Adam unto Moses, even over them also who have not sinned, after the similitude of the transgression of Adam, who is a figure of him who was to come.” Who are those that "have not sinned"?

There is no justification at all for putting the comma after "sinned," because the sentence clearly says, even in the Latin text, "those who did not sin after the manner of Adam," i.e. those who didn't commit the same sin that Adam did. I'm not sure who put that comma there or why, but it's wrong.

So there are some big problems with the translation you're using. "I'm not judging, I'm just saying..." :D

No problem with me. I don't intend to argue Greek translation. I don't know enough to make it worth my while. Besides, my faith is built on the Magisterium of the Church which includes both the Traditions of the Apostles and Holy Scripture, not a book.

Nevertheless, I suppose you could argue that 'full of grace' (κεχαριτωμένη [translieteration: kecharitomene])in Luke 1:28 could be translated 'full of favor' or 'highly favored.' It's certainly the argument that the infamous Catholic hater James White uses. He says that Mary is only full of God's favor. (frankly, I don't see much difference.) I'm told that the error is that the apparent use of the word infers a title since it follows a greeting, 'hail,' Thus, as Catholic Tradition teaches that 'kecharitomene' is a proper title for her, i.e. 'full of grace' and it would be just as right to call her the 'most favored' or 'full of favor'.

However, putting this with 'the Lord is with you' adds a bit of scale (more weight) doesn't it. Being full of the boss's favor is one thing, you might get a small raise, and you might get to take his tee on Friday and Monday; but when you are FULL OF GOD's FAVOR, now think of the number of times you can tee off. We aren't finished though, Mary is 'blessed among women;' so three special honors given to very few in the bible.

The reason we say Mary is full of Grace isn't so much because of the way we translate the Scripture, it's has more to do with what filled her belly, A LIVING GRACE. Thus, Mary was figuratively and literally 'full of grace.' St. Ambrose wrote:

But of what creature can it be said that it fills all things, as is written of the Holy Spirit: I will pour My Spirit upon all flesh. Joel 2:28 This cannot be said of an Angel. Lastly, Gabriel himself, when sent to Mary, said: Hail, full of grace, Luke 1:28 plainly declaring the grace of the Spirit which was in her, because the Holy Spirit had come upon her, and she was about to have her womb full of grace with the heavenly Word. St. Ambrose, On the Holy Spirit, Bk I, 85

You probably know that the Vulgate version was essentially the work of St. Jerome in the 4th century. You might say this translation has been around since people actually spoke ancient Greek. Thus, 'full of grace' has been the accepted Latin translation. St. Jerome taught Mary's perpetual virginity and her immaculate soul. (Cf. CHURCH FATHERS: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary (Jerome))

JoeT

[RickJ]

disagrees : If you believe the Bible then you know Mary had to have sinned. According to God's word, Jesus was the only one without sin.

I DO believe the Bible. That's why I posted what I did.

The question is for Catholics (Read the question). Users should stick to threads that they believe they can help in, not go to areas where they cannot help - to negatively rate people in areas that they are not familiar with.

How'd you like it if people went into threads that you answer in - and rate you negatively just because they do not believe in your opinion?

No, I won't "retaliate" by giving you negative ratings (even though I'm sure I could find something that you've said that I disagree with). That would not be the Christian thing to do ;)