[cozyk]

I've spent much of today reading post about the word "know" vs the word belief.
I've always thought the word "know" was thrown around too loosely. For example. I BELIEVE that my dog in the next room is still breathing. I would not KNOW it, unless I went to him and saw his chest rise, etc.

There are VERY FEW things in this world that we can say we know100% . If I said "I know my car is still in the garage" I'd feel pretty confident with that assumption. BUT, if I was ask to bet my child's life on that, I would very quickly reduce that KNOW to an "I BELIEVE my car is still in the garage.

Now, everyone seems to be getting this except Tom. He insist that he knows there is a god, there is proof of god and he has evidence to back it up. The only thing is, you haven't showed us your proof or evidence. I happen to believe there IS a god, but notice I said believe.

Please share your proof with me. Bible scripture does not do it because there is no proof that it is correct.

[Fr_Chuck]

No, all Christians KNOW there is a God, only those that are unsaved or those that serve Satan wish to deny there is a God.

We know because we feel him, we hear him and we know him, just like I know the person living in the house down the street, he is just as real.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe that could not just happen without God doing it.

[bones252100]

I could share with you many "proofs" but you have to find your own "proof". It will only be relevant to you. Belief in God requires "blind faith". It requires that faith & you must trust that He is really there. When you have a problem or a decision to make, tell God your concerns, put those concerns on his shoulders, let His will be done & then relax. You have given those concerns up to Him & the best decision for you will be made by God. You never really had control anyway. The proof for you will be when things start to become easier or better. It may not be the route you would have taken but when it actually works out better for you in the long run then you will understand that He is really there & cares for you. That will be your proof!

[bones252100]

I could share with you many "proofs" but you have to find your own "proof". It will only be relevant to you. Belief in God requires "blind faith". It requires that faith & you must trust that He is really there. When you have a problem or a decision to make, tell God your concerns, put those concerns on his shoulders, let His will be done & then relax. You have given those concerns up to Him & the best decision for you will be made by God. You never really had control anyway. The proof for you will be when things start to become easier or better. It may not be the route you would have taken but when it actually works out better for you in the long run then you will understand that He is really there & cares for you. That will be your proof!

[cozyk]

No, all Christians KNOW there is a God, only those that are unsaved or those that serve Satan wish to deny there is a God.

We know because we feel him, we hear him and we know him, just like I know the person living in the house down the street, he is just as real.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe that could not just happen without God doing it.

I don't deny God or worship satan. I believe God is real. I just would not be so arrogant as to say to someone, "YOU are unsaved and going to hell because you have a different belief." You know the person down the street because you have met him in the flesh, face to face.

Your belief (and mine) is based on faith. It is real to me but it is still a belief, not a fact. That was the point of my OP. Tom kept saying he KNOWS and has proof. What proof would convince a non believer? The wonders of the world is not proof. That is just biology. Come up with something that can't be argued. That is my challenge.

[revdrgade]

I've spent much of today reading post about the word "know" vs the word belief.
I've always thought the word "know" was thrown around too loosely.

I agree about the use of the word "know". But to make knowing dependent on our senses leaves us with knowing nothing except, perhaps, the existence of our thinking ability.

Solipsism is very logical in saying that we "sense" a lot of things in our dreams even though they are not real. And too, our physical senses when awake sometimes deceive us. We really can't get past "believing" that we have a body which can sense a world beyond our thinking ability.

We do live by faith. The only difference between you and I as Christians and the unbelievers is that our faith is focused on God (as He has and is revealing Himself to us) as the real "reality".

We put our faith on His word above our physical senses.

[cozyk]

I could share with you many "proofs" but you have to find your own "proof". It will only be relevant to you. Belief in God requires "blind faith". It requires that faith & you must trust that He is really there. When you have a problem or a decision to make, tell God your concerns, put those concerns on his shoulders, let His will be done & then relax. You have given those concerns up to Him & the best decision for you will be made by God. You never really had control anyway. The proof for you will be when things start to become easier or better. It may not be the route you would have taken but when it actually works out better for you in the long run then you will understand that He is really there & cares for you. That will be your proof!

I never said I did not believe. The point is, I do believe but that does not make it a fact for everyone. It is not for me to shove my belief down the throats of people who believe differently. The audacity to say my way is the only way is wrong.

I do lift my concerns to my god. That is when I "Be still and know that I am God" . God is in my soul, not some white robed man floating around in the heavens. If I stop trying to control everything and give it to God, that is "being still", that is listening for Gods will.

[Wondergirl]

I don't deny God or worship satan. I believe God is real. I just would not be so arrogant as to say to someone, "YOU are unsaved and going to hell because you have a different belief."

You are mixing apples and oranges. If someone says "I know God is real," that doesn't disrespect the other person or mean he is going to hell. Those are two different things. I know God is real but what you know or believe has nothing to do with it.

[bones252100]

The proof cannot be displayed nor given to anyone. Each person must learn it by experience. Our duties as believers is to live our lives as an example so non-believers will see that example & allow us to tell them how to find the proof of God's existence.

[cozyk]

That is my point. It can not be PROVEN and I am really hoping to hear from TJ3 aka Tom. He is the one that kept repeating how he had evidence and proof. I am waiting on him to back it up.

[simoneaugie]

No, all Christians KNOW there is a God, only those that are unsaved or those that serve Satan wish to deny there is a God.

We know because we feel him, we hear him and we know him, just like I know the person living in the house down the street, he is just as real.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe that could not just happen without God doing it.

Please, tell me that I am usaved, that I serve Satan. Cast out of Christian dogma, I am saved.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe are not limited by the mind of man, it was created by something much wiser. There is a design so intricate and perfect there, we should admire what little of it we can perceive, not fight about it. The world of God is not even describeable to us, let alone written down in a book. The Bible is a very positive icon, but I can not limit my universe to it. I feel her, hear her and know her too, please don't attempt to obscure that with rules you subscribe to.

[De Maria]

I've spent much of today reading post about the word "know" vs the word belief.
I've always thought the word "know" was thrown around too loosely. For example. I BELIEVE that my dog in the next room is still breathing. I would not KNOW it, unless I went to him and saw his chest rise, etc.

And once you saw his chest rise, would you cease to believe it because you knew it?

To believe and to know share a common element. All we have to do is look at a definition:

4 know
be aware of the truth of something; have a belief or faith in something; regard as true beyond any doubt; "I know that I left the key on the table"; "Galileo knew that the earth moves around the sun"
Definition of know - WordReference.com Dictionary

In essence, to know is to believe without a shadow of a doubt.

There are VERY FEW things in this world that we can say we know100% . If I said "I know my car is still in the garage" I'd feel pretty confident with that assumption. BUT, if I was ask to bet my child's life on that, I would very quickly reduce that KNOW to an "I BELIEVE my car is still in the garage.

I would say there are many things which we know 100%. I know I'm here. I know this desk is in front of me and this PC. I can't count the number of things in my immediate proximity which I am certain are here.

Now, everyone seems to be getting this except Tom. He insist that he knows there is a god, there is proof of god and he has evidence to back it up.

Although Tom and I agree on few other things. This in one in which we agree wholeheartedly.

I also know that God exists, there is proof of His existence and that the evidence is even available to you.

The only thing is, you haven't showed us your proof or evidence.

The proof is evident to me. But even objective evidence is challenged. Because the object is viewed differently by each subjective mind.

I happen to believe there IS a god, but notice I said believe.

I would ask you then, to explain why you believe in God and perhaps I can begin from there to explain why I know that God exists.

Please share your proof with me.

I'm fairly certain that the same proof you have which leads you to suspect that God exists is the same evidence which has convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Bible scripture does not do it because there is no proof that it is correct.

Scripture is one of the proofs of God's existence. We must remember that these are first hand, eyewitness written testimonies of God's existence.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

Please, tell me that I am usaved, that I serve Satan. Cast out of Christian dogma, I am saved.

Proof, the world, the wonders of the universe are not limited by the mind of man, it was created by something much wiser. There is a design so intricate and perfect there, we should admire what little of it we can perceive, not fight about it. The world of God is not even describeable to us, let alone written down in a book. The Bible is a very positive icon, but I can not limit my universe to it. I feel her, hear her and know her too, please don't attempt to obscure that with with rules you subscribe to.

Which rules do you speak of, the Ten Commandments?

[cozyk]

And once you saw his chest rise, would you cease to believe it because you knew it?
No, I would more than just believe it, I'd know it for sure. It is a step further than believe.
To believe is to assume. To know is to have solid evidence or absolute proof.

I believe my old school is still standing, I wouldn't know it unless I drove over there and looked at it. Having someone tell me that it is still standing is not absolute proof. That is assuming they are telling me truth. This sounds petty I know, but it shows us how many things we think we know, but really just assume because the odds in in favor of it.

To believe and to know share a common element. All we have to do is look at a definition:

4 know
be aware of the truth of something; have a belief or faith in something; regard as true beyond any doubt; "I know that I left the key on the table"; "Galileo knew that the earth moves around the sun"
Definition of know - WordReference.com Dictionary




In essence, to know is to believe without a shadow of a doubt.

Correct, without a SHADOW of a doubt



I would say there are many things which we know 100%. I know I'm here. I know this desk is in front of me and this pc. I can't count the number of things in my immediate proximity which I am certain are here.



Although Tom and I agree on few other things. This in one in which we agree wholeheartedly.

I also know that God exists, there is proof of His existence and that the evidence is even available to you.

What is this proof? What is this evidence? I can't get this from you or Tom. I "feel" like there is most likely a higher power because my conscience has conversations with me in my head. I believe that is God speaking to me. But that's just me. I can't tell someone else that the existence of god is a fact. There is no way to prove it. You just choose to believe or not.

The proof is evident to me. But even objective evidence is challenged. Because the object is viewed differently by each subjective mind.

Again what is your proof? What if this were a court of law? Do you just have "circumstantial evidence?" I am not trying to "disprove" God. I hope and pray and believe there is a god, but I have yet to hear something concrete enough to go around telling others that they are wrong if they don't believe.

I would ask you then, to explain why you believe in God and perhaps I can begin from there to explain why I know that God exists.

]I believe mostly because I want to. I would hate to think I am out here on this limb called life all by myself.


I'm fairly certain that the same proof you have which leads you to suspect that God exists is the same evidence which has convinced me beyond a shadow of a doubt.



Scripture is one of the proofs of God's existence. We must remember that these are first hand, eyewitness written testimonies of God's existence.

I do not believe this is any kind of proof. Too much time has gone by, been through too many translations, been left up to too many interpretations, and the variables are too many. Just because someone wrote it doesn't mean they got it right. You just assume they did.

Sincerely,

De Maria

I can't disprove him, but I can't prove him either. I just want to know what those who say they have proof to spell it out with something concrete.

[De Maria]

I can't disprove him, but I can't prove him either. I just want to know what those who say they have proof to spell it out with something concrete.

There's an old saying, "for some no proof is necessary, for others no proof is enough".

No, I would more than just believe it, I'd know it for sure. It is a step further than believe. To believe is to assume. To know is to have solid evidence or absolute proof.

Good, you would not cease to believe it, but would believe it with more certainty. With absolute certainty.

I believe my old school is still standing, I wouldn't know it unless I drove over there and looked at it.

And would you cease to believe it as soon as it was out of sight again?

Having someone tell me that it is still standing is not absolute proof. That is assuming they are telling me truth. This sounds petty I know, but it shows us how many things we think we know, but really just assume because the odds in in favor of it.

You are trying to make a point. Which I understand. But I'm trying to tell you, which I haven't yet a chance to do so, that if it is true that you don't know that God exists, you really don't believe.

The demons believe. They know that God exists. But they don't BELIEVE IN God. And there is a difference between believing that God exists and believing in God.

Believing in God means that we assume His Goodness and Love towards us. We can't believe in His Goodness and Love if we aren't certain that He exists. Can we?

Do you believe that God loves you? How can you if you aren't even certain of His existence?

Correct, without a SHADOW of a doubt

Glad we agree. Therefore, those who believe that God exists can know that God exists. TJ and I fall in that group. I hope you will as well.

What is this proof? What is this evidence? I can't get this from you or Tom. I "feel" like there is most likely a higher power because my conscience has conversations with me in my head.

That's one. Even when I was an atheist, I found myself having these sorts of conversations.

I believe that is God speaking to me. But that's just me. I can't tell someone else that the existence of god is a fact. There is no way to prove it. You just choose to believe or not.

Great! I advise that you test every spirit. For me, testing would require making certain that the spirit is teaching me in accordance to the Church or at the very least is not saying anything against the Church.

Again what is your proof? What if this were a court of law? Do you just have "circumstantial evidence?" I am not trying to "disprove" God.

Great! I'm glad you mentioned a court of law.

1. The Scriptures are not circumstantial evidence. They are eyewitness testimonies. And they hold up in court.
2. Historical evidence confirming the Scriptures also holds up in court.

For me however, my belief in God came like a bolt of lightning. One moment I didn't believe, the next I couldn't understand why I had not believed.

It was after my wife conceived our first child. I was on cloud nine. One of the things which came to my mind is, "How? What did I do?" I hadn't done anything. I mean, the experience was enjoyable. But certainly, something else had happened which was beyond my control.

From that moment, I looked at everything differently. It was as though I could see the hand of God in my life. I looked at the common, ordinary things in my life, a blade of grass, a leaf in a tree and I could see that only God could be responsible for that. No doubt in my mind since then.

That's my proof. I keep telling as many people as will listen. But few understand.

I hope and pray and believe there is a god, but I have yet to hear something concrete enough to go around telling others that they are wrong if they don't believe.

Remember this:
2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.

I pray that the Lord may open your eyes to see His Hand in your life and you may be certain of His existence.

I believe mostly because I want to. I would hate to think I am out here on this limb called life all by myself.

No problem. Wanting God, desiring God and His Love is the right reason to believe.

I do not believe this is any kind of proof. Too much time has gone by, been through too many translations, been left up to too many interpretations, and the variables are too many. Just because someone wrote it doesn't mean they got it right. You just assume they did.

My faith in God teaches me to have faith in people. And our system of Magisterium, Tradition and Scripture ensures that interpretations, translations and other variables are always checked and triple checked back to the Source.

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[simoneaugie]

Which rules do you speak of, the Ten Commandments?

I was not speaking of the Ten Commandments. Rules that limit us, keep us from God-like action and interpersonal caring are in the way, in my opinion. You are free to disagree. The point is, that as a non-Christians, when we disagree you tend to get defensive.

The Truth that is believed or known to Christians, and not believed or known by non-Christians causes apparent human failure. Christians have failed in their word-spreading and recruitment. Non-Christians are lost, serve Satan, are going to a Christian hell.

I don't think any of us are failures, except when we choose hate, superiority and derision over love, tolerance and acceptance. Making the hateful choice is forgivable, always. Christians I've met, spoken and lived with, then walked away from can't seem to understand this point of view. Can you?

[ingrid119]

The universe had to start somewhere and so far scientists have not been able to create matter out of nothing. Jesus's body could not be found. 500 people saw him rise and most if not all were crucified for it from what I can remember.

[cozyk]

The universe had to start somewhere and so far scientists have not been able to create matter out of nothing. Jesus's body could not be found. 500 people saw him rise and most if not all were crucified for it from what I can remember.

I'm not following.:confused: People who saw him rise were crucified? And how does this connect to the OP?

[De Maria]

I was not speaking of the Ten Commandments. Rules that limit us, keep us from God-like action and interpersonal caring are in the way, in my opinion.

Which rules are those?

You are free to disagree. The point is, that as a non-Christians, when we disagree you tend to get defensive.

I tend to see it the other way around. When we disagree with non-Christians, they seem to get defensive.

Maybe we're biased.

The Truth that is believed or known to Christians, and not believed or known by non-Christians causes apparent human failure. Christians have failed in their word-spreading and recruitment. Non-Christians are lost, serve Satan, are going to a Christian hell.

Has someone on this forum said that?

I don't think any of us are failures, except when we choose hate, superiority and derision over love, tolerance and acceptance. Making the hateful choice is forgivable, always. Christians I've met, spoken and lived with, then walked away from can't seem to understand this point of view. Can you?

That depends on what you mean. Sometimes people think that love means tolerating every evil intention they have in their heart. I don't see it that way. There are things which are intrinsically evil.

Homosexuality for instance. It is intrinsically evil. Yet many claim that those who participate in that sin are showing "love".

So what do you mean? Do you mean that to show "love" I must tolerate every sin which people consider good?

Sincerely,

[ingrid119]

I'm not following.:confused: People who saw him rise were crucified? And how does this connect to the OP?

You asked for specific proof of God's existence. I figured that you wanted facts instead of "we feel him". What I mean by the people who saw him rise is that when Jesus actually rise to heaven there were 500 documented accounts of seeing him do so and all (or most) of them were nailed to crosses to die.