[garboozle]

I'm not trying to be offensive in my question. I've been trying to find faith after a stressful time in my life and I feel a slight pull towards Christianity. One thing I have trouble getting over in Christianity is the concept of Hell... How is it anyway justifiable? God gives small evidence of his existence thousands of years ago and now sends people to torment and toil in Hell for an ETERNITY for being skeptical? Doesn't that just strike you as WRONG? Especially when you consider how (almost) genetic, for instance your religious is. If you were born in Iran to Muslim parents... You'd probably be Muslim.. And if you were born in India to Hindu parents... You'd be Hindu! It seems down right immoral to send good people who've never stolen or harmed someone simply for not believing. Again I'm not trying to bash just looking for perspectives.

[Fr_Chuck]

** First you will not get the full best answer, I had it, and it would not post and poof is gone, and I don't have time to retype my last 30 minutes of typing now.

Basically we don't, don't plan on justify, don't want to justify, and won't justify.

How do you justify the sky being blue instead of red, ( not explain why, but justify why)
How do you justify the planets being in balance.
How do you justify your birth ? My birth.

If you are a Buddhist or Hindu how do you justify sending a soul up and down into varioius animals and levels. Live good, you go up, live bad, you go down.
You want to spend the next 2000 years as a gopher, or 100 years as a fly, ( and you think Christian hell is bad ?)

If you have no belief in any after life, how do you justify not stealing and cheating when you can, to make your current life better, since doing wrong to another makes not difference

Next there are dozens of Christian beliefs on hell, what denomination are you talking to.

If you are Mormon ( any antimorom posts will be deleted) you believe in three levels of heaven each obtained by work

In another faith, hell is only for Satan and the demons and everyone else is just in a purgatory of sort, working to get out. ** purgatory only word I could think of, but not talking about Catholics

For others, there is no hell it was just a figure of speech and everyone is going to heaven, just better status for those who accepted,

I have to run to college, we can discuss more latter

[garboozle]

Sorry to hear about your first post, and thanks for posting your condensed reply.

The sky needs no justification for being blue, it's a matter of science (Rayleigh scattering). The same goes for the planets. Those things aren't causing suffering and they aren't a conscious decisions such as sending one to Hell.

At least in Hinduism and Buddhism it's based on karma. If you live a life helping others and be courteous you are rewarded in your next life no matter what your beliefs, but I do catch your drift on how reincarnation is unjustifiable/unfair. Still though I'd rather spend a couple years as a gopher than an eternity of fire and brimstone.

As for having no belief in the after life and stealing /cheating. Even when I was a vehement Atheist I didn't do those things due to empathy. I don't want to steal from others because I know the feeling of being stolen FROM.

Some of those different perspectives of Hell seem a little more practical.

[classyT]

Garboozle,

How is it in anyway justifiable for God to provide a way to stay out of hell by sending his own son to take our place and then have man reject his gift. He didn't make hell for mankind and he doesn't send anyone there. Man sends himself by saying "no thanks".

God isn't interested in man's good works. We can't be good enough. It is only pride that makes someone think he can work his way through karma or whatever.

The only way this would be unfair is if we are born sinners and God provided no way out for us. Then we might be able to complain or at least have a case.

The deal is God is sovereign. There is no way around it. He is also love, grace and merciful. It is our choice.

[Fr_Chuck]

No, you quote why and how science defines it, but how do you even know it is "blue" why is it blue? But it is it how it got to be that way, no one can explain or justify it, or justify hunger in the world,

[NeedKarma]

Man sends himself by saying "no thanks".

So anyone who is not a christian is already in hell?

[Wondergirl]

And if there is one, what IS hell? Fire and brimstone or something else?

[Wondergirl]

So anyone who is not a christian is already in hell?

Conservative Christians say you die, then heaven or hell.

[NeedKarma]

Conservative Christians say you die, then heaven or hell.

That's what I thought but that's not what classyt wrote.

[Wondergirl]

That's what I thought but that's not what classyt wrote.

Yeah, she did in an obscure way.

[Wondergirl]

Fleshed out version: "[God] didn't make hell for mankind and he doesn't send anyone there [when that person dies]. Man sends himself [there] by saying "no thanks" [to God in this life]."

[NeedKarma]

Thanks.

[classyT]

Fleshed out version: "[God] didn't make hell for mankind and he doesn't send anyone there [when that person dies]. Man sends himself [there] by saying "no thanks" [to God in this life]."

Yep. I didn't realize I was confusing. Thanks

[classyT]

And if there is one, what IS hell? fire and brimstone or something else?

I don't know exactly. I believe it is going to be darkness, fire that doesn't consume or give light, where the worm doesn't die, total feeling of hopelessness, weeping and gnashing of teeth. It will be complete separation from God. A place no one would want to be or NEED be.

[Wondergirl]

where the worm doesnt die

And that means what?

[NeedKarma]

It will be complete seperation from God. A place no one would want to be or NEED be.

Well millions of atheists live happily separated from any god. Perhaps it's only the adherents that would feel the effect.

[dwashbur]

Hell is simultaneously described as a place of fire and brimstone (sulfur, which stinks horribly when burned), a place of darkness and chains, a place of torment, a place of emptiness, a place reserved for Satan and his minions, and several other ways. Truth be told, we have no idea what it's like because all of these are attempts to describe the indescribable. Having fire simultaneous with darkness doesn't seem too likely; it's all trying to describe a place where God isn't. I don't know exactly what it is, but in a rare moment of befuddlement, I find myself agreeing with ClassyT: God doesn't send people there. They send themselves.

What about Muslims and Hindus and people who have never heard about Christianity? Well, the first few chapters of Romans seem to say that everyone will be judged according to the amount of knowledge they have. Everyone knows something about God; creation tells us he exists and is all-powerful. Some people know more about God; he revealed himself to a specific people at a certain time and showed them more of what he was about and what he wanted from people. And some know quite a bit about God: they have experienced God's ultimate self-revelation in Jesus of Nazareth, who showed us who God is and made it possible for us to approach that God through his death and resurrection. But regardless of a person's level of knowledge, they are required to act on that knowledge. The person who only knows of creation needs to acknowledge the creator and be grateful, rather than worship the creation itself. The person who knows more needs to do the same, and submit themselves to the God who revealed himself instead of just trying to keep a set of rules. And so on. How we act on the information we have determines our eternal destiny. It's not a case of God taking fiendish glee in condemning someone to an eternity apart from him, it's a case of people choosing to look to something other than him. It always comes down to choices.

Note that this is not original with me; I am indebted to Lee Hahnlen, formerly of Montana Institute of the Bible, who set this out in a chapel sermon that has stayed with me to this day.

[classyT]

but in a rare moment of befuddlement, I find myself agreeing with ClassyT:

What you call befuddlement, I call clarity.

[hauntinghelper]

Well said Dave!

[dwashbur]

Well said Dave!

Thanks. Again, I wish I could take credit for it, but I can't.

ClassyT, obviously the clarity was on your end :-P