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excon · Jul 30, 2009, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by galveston

The case of the young man who went into the VA hospital for removal of his gall bladder.

He lost both his legs, but still has his gall bladder.

Does that bother any of you who argue for the government to control the how, when, where, and who of our health care?

Hello gal:

Sure, I'm bothered for the kid. You're not suggesting, though, that these catastrophic events only happen in GOVERNMENT hospitals, are you?? Nahhh, you're not.

Here's what bothers me MORE. It's that you righty's want to take away these peoples right to sue, and sue BIG - SO BIG, so as to insure that the offending doctor NEVER practices again.

Do YOU want to send your family to a doctor who did stuff like that, and only got slapped on the wrist? With tort reform, you could.

Besides, if YOUR kid got maimed, you wouldn't be so supportive of caps on the award, would you? Nahhh, I don't think you would...

excon

ETWolverine · Jul 31, 2009, 06:10 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Sure. It's in the Ninth Amendment. That's where all the rights that weren't enumerated in the previous eight amendments can be found. In fact, the Ninth Amendment says that exact thing. Doesn't it??? What do you think Jefferson meant when he said in the Declaration, "that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are Life , Liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

It says that we have a RIGHT to life. That's a term you should be familiar with. If we have a right to life, and you're sick, seems to me you have a right to get better. If it takes a doctor to make that happen, so be it. What do YOU think it means?

Why didn't anybody notice it before now??? Well, it's like the right for gays to get married. Nobody asked about it before.

excon

As the article I posted points out, there are many things that are MORE IMPORTANT to the existence of life than health care. Food, clothing and shelter are the three big ones.

Does anyone have a "right" to food?

Does anyone have a "right" to clothing?

Does anyone have a "right" to shelter?

Nope.

And as we have discussed before, the 9th Amendment doesn't create rights. Never has and never will. Your interpretation of the 9th Amendment is wrong and has been proven so time and again.

Again, if this right to health care exists, how come it was never talked about, fought for, given, taken away, or otherwise mentioned at any time in history?

How can a right that has never existed suddenly be made to exist?

Elliot

excon · Jul 31, 2009, 06:20 AM

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

How can a right that has never existed suddenly be made to exist?

Hello again, El:

I agree with you. Rights cannot be created. They can only be recognized. What?? You think the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment DIDN'T exist before we wrote about it?? Of course it existed.

excon

tomder55 · Jul 31, 2009, 06:29 AM

Right is not the proper word . There is no Right to health care .There may be a need for health care .But that doesn't make it a right .

What is clear in the Constitution is that the Federal Government delineates few and limited powers to the central government .
People can claim the right to health care all day long and there still would be no constitutional mandate for the Federal Government to provide it. If there is then please show me where it says the government has the authority to pick our pockets to provide health care to anyone else.

excon · Jul 31, 2009, 06:46 AM

Originally Posted by tomder55

if there is then please show me where it says the government has the authority to pick our pockets to provide health care to anyone else.

Hello again, tom:

I don't know. Where does it say that the government can take your money to provide police protection for others, or fire protection, or roads, or land fills, or water treatment centers?? When you find that stuff, health care is included.

excon

tomder55 · Jul 31, 2009, 06:50 AM

It doesn't .Most of those services you mention are provided by local governments... not the national government .

ETWolverine · Jul 31, 2009, 10:54 AM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

I agree with you. Rights cannot be created. They can only be recognized. What???? You think the right to be free from cruel and unusual punishment DIDN'T exist before we wrote about it???? Of course it existed.

excon

Yep. The right to be free of cruel and inhuman punishment did exist before it was written about in the Constitution.

Remember that whole thing about Moses taking the Jews out of slavery in Egypt... that was an excersize in being free from cruel and unusual punishment. That was one of the earliest examples recorded of the exercize of that right.

The right to be free of cruel and unusual punishment has an historical basis. Wars have been fought because of it. Nations have been built in its defense. Sparta (and by extension all of Greece) came into existence as a defense against cruel and unusual punishment. It exists and was fought for long before the USA ever came along. It didn't just pop into existence. It is, in fact, one of the founding principals that created most of the nations in history... whether they continued to practice that right or not, they were often founded to escape cruel and unhuman punishment of some sort.

Now... can you show me an historical or even a legal basis for a right to health care?

Elliot

NeedKarma · Jul 31, 2009, 11:22 AM

Man I'd love to live in a country where basic healthcare was a right for all citizens.

ETWolverine · Jul 31, 2009, 11:36 AM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Man I'd love to live in a country where basic healthcare was a right for all citizens.

Yes... it would be nice. But such a place doesn't exist.

IF it was a right, you wouldn't have to pay for it. It would just be there.

Do you pay for your right to free speech? Or your right to free worship?

Elliot

NeedKarma · Jul 31, 2009, 11:38 AM

Nah I don't pay for those rights. But I have no problem contributed to a right to universal healthcare for all. And that place does exist - in pretty much all modern societies except the US.

ETWolverine · Jul 31, 2009, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

Nah I don't pay for those rights. But I have no problem contributed to a right to universal healthcare for all. And that place does exist - in pretty much all modern societies except the US.

How much do you pay in taxes again?

Countries with nationalized health care have tax rates that start in the 60% range (including national and local taxes), and go as high as 80% in some places.

TANSTAAFL

There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch

Nothing's free.

excon · Jul 31, 2009, 12:33 PM

Originally Posted by ETWolverine

IF it was a right, you wouldn't have to pay for it. It would just be there. Do you pay for your right to free speech? Or your right to free worship?

Hello again, El:

Do you pay for your guns?

excon

NeedKarma · Jul 31, 2009, 12:34 PM

More than you. Did you not know that that how is is funded? However I still still seem to make a good living, take vacations and save for my retirement.
How much do you pay a month for medical insurance for a family of four? Whatever that amount is I don't pay.

ETWolverine · Jul 31, 2009, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, El:

Do you pay for your guns?

excon

I don't pay for the RIGHT to own a gun. I pay for the hardware. The right's free.

Unlike health care... you have to pay for that. It ain't a right.

ETWolverine · Jul 31, 2009, 12:36 PM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

More than you. Did you not know that that how is is funded? However I still still seem to make a good living, take vacations and save for my retirement.
How much do you pay a month for medical insurance for a family of four? Whatever that amount is I don't pay.

$1500/month while on COBRA. Less when an employer is paying part of it. That's why I know it's not a right.

speechlesstx · Jul 31, 2009, 12:56 PM

Give it up Elliot, NK's got you there. There's no sense in arguing about any of it anyway because we dumb Americans are too stupid to understand anyway.

We're the problem, if it weren't for us bitter, clingy simpletons we could be living in a modern paradise like NK. So we should just shut up and let them do their job.

speechlesstx · Jul 31, 2009, 01:16 PM

And wouldn't you know it, as soon as I post about we dumb Americans that don't understand it all up pops a video where Andrea Mitchell tells us that people who have insurance and oppose Obamacare “may not know what’s good for them.”

I am so thankful we have liberal Democrats in charge to dictate what's best for the unwashed, peasant masses, aren't you?

galveston · Jul 31, 2009, 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by NeedKarma

More than you. Did you not know that that how is is funded? However I still still seem to make a good living, take vacations and save for my retirement.
How much do you pay a month for medical insurance for a family of four? Whatever that amount is I don't pay.

Might that be because you are not taxed to support a military establishment? If you had to pay for your health care AND your military, would you be doing well financially?

galveston · Jul 31, 2009, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by excon

Hello gal:

Sure, I'm bothered for the kid. You're not suggesting, though, that these catastrophic events only happen in GOVERNMENT hospitals, are you??? Nahhh, you're not.

Here's what bothers me MORE. It's that you righty's want to take away these peoples right to sue, and sue BIG - SO BIG, so as to insure that the offending doctor NEVER practices again.

Do YOU want to send your family to a doctor who did stuff like that, and only got slapped on the wrist? With tort reform, you could.

Besides, if YOUR kid got maimed, you wouldn't be so supportive of caps on the award, would you? Nahhh, I don't think you would....

excon

You defeat your own argument here.

You can't sue a VA hospital, that would be suing the government, and that AIN'T going to happen.

You knew that, though.

ETWolverine · Jul 31, 2009, 02:05 PM

Yep... NK's got me there. His health care is free. He's giving most of what he earns to the government in taxes, he gets to wait on line for just about everything medical, but his health care's free.

Canada's a utopia, doncha know. No guns, no crime, free health care for everyone, and they've got that nifty national anthem. Not to mention the Mounties in those really cool uniforms.

I wish I was NK...

Elliot