[Tj3]

Not so. Calvinism goes much, much further than that.

I agree that Calvinism goes further. That is why I said that it was one of the key tenets.

[Wondergirl]

I agree that Calvinism goes further. That is why I said that it was one of the key tenets.

And Calvinism twists what you call a "key tenet" into something very different.

[Tj3]

And Calvinism twists what you call a "key tenet" into something very different.

Agreed. Your earlier comment sounded very much like that Calvinist doctrine, but if you are saying that you reject the Calvinist belief that man cannot make a decision to receive Christ, then we are in agreement.

[De Maria]

There have been many questions of late that revolve around, "If I/he/she does (pick your sin and place it here), will hell be consequence?" Because of this, I can't help but wonder if all people are taught to love God by using the fear of hell.

That is a false impression. People are taught to love God by showing His goodness.

However, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. If one never learns to love God but he does learn to fear God, there is nothing wrong with that. Because, as Scripture says:

Hebrews 10 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I know the importance of knowing the consequences of actions taken. But why does instilling fear of the consequences seem to be the forefront of stopping bad actions?

I don't know why you have arrived at that conclusion. It might have to do with the fact that human beings seem to be drawn to the morbid and the negative. Many more good things occur each day than evil. Yet all we see on the news is the evil committed by man.

When you were a child and your parents told you not to pick on other children...Should it be, "If you do this you will receive such and such punishment" Or should it be, "It is cruel and wrong to put other people down. This is not how anyone should act." Are they both just as effective?

Yes. And my parents used both. Didn't yours? Although they also frequently said, "because I say so!"

Maybe both ways are just as effective, but if you choose people's fear of punishment, then they don't gain understanding of why such action shouldn't be done.

What if you explain first and they still disobey?

I feel that is what is most important. The understanding of why a bad action shouldn't be done teaches morals, it teaches us how to be good persons because that is how people should be and NOT because something bad will happen to you if you do the opposite.

When I was a child, before I could understand words, I reached to touch the fire on the stove because it was pretty. A quick slap on the hand prevented my being burned and I understood it more effectively than a whole volume of words.

In my own observations I see how people being taught to love God through their fear of hell causes them to equate God with hell. God should NEVER be equated with hell. Hell has nothing to do with any discriptions of God. I have seen too, that people seem to have a harder time understanding the whole point in Jesus' death. They also don't understand the "door of grace". Many of them think of God as cruel, stern, no sense of humor, stiff and even unfriendly. How can anyone ever be expected to grow close to God when these are the distinctions in the forefront of minds when thinking of Him?

It is unfortunate that many people have a misunderstanding of who and what is God. But that misunderstanding frequently comes from their own desire to do what they want instead of what God wills.

Yes, God is strict and He is the epitome of strength, as well as He should be. But He is more than that too. He is grace, mercy, kindness, forgiveness and LOVE like you've never been loved before. God is the only reason there is love and goodness because that is who He is. Without God there is no good in this world or in people.

Amen!

Why do so many people use hell to scare people into loving God instead of allowing God to truly shine through and be loved on His own accord, because He is deserving of it simply because He is God and not because you will go to hell if you don't?!?

Probably as a last resort. After they've tried to tell people of God's love and been ridiculed, then they try to warn people of the consequences of their actions.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Wondergirl]

Agreed. Your earlier comment sounded very much like that Calvinist doctrine, but if you are saying that you reject the Calvinist belief that man cannot make a decision to receive Christ, then we are in agreement.

Man's acceptance is evidence of the HS already at work.

[Wondergirl]

That is a false impression. People are taught to love God by showing His goodness.

However, the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom. If one never learns to love God but he does learn to fear God, there is nothing wrong with that. Because, as Scripture says:

There's fear and there's fear. What's your definition of "fear of God."

[arcura]

MoonlitWaves,
I agree that is the way it should be and I do believe that the bible teaches that very way.
In short, those who forgive are forgiven in like manner.
That is what Jesus taught us to pray.
That is why I forgive everyone who has sinned against me via thought, word or deed whether I know about it or not.
I pray that God forgives me in like manner.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[De Maria]

There's fear and there's fear. What's your definition of "fear of God."

Definitions of fear on the Web:

* be afraid or feel anxious or apprehensive about a possible or probable situation or event; "I fear she might get aggressive"
* be afraid or scared of; be frightened of; "I fear the winters in Moscow"; "We should not fear the Communists!"
* be sorry; used to introduce an unpleasant statement; "I fear I won't make it to your wedding party"
* an emotion experienced in anticipation of some specific pain or danger (usually accompanied by a desire to flee or fight)
* concern: an anxious feeling; "care had aged him"; "they hushed it up out of fear of public reaction"
* be uneasy or apprehensive about; "I fear the results of the final exams"
* reverence: regard with feelings of respect and reverence; consider hallowed or exalted or be in awe of; "Fear God as your father"; "We venerate genius"
* a feeling of profound respect for someone or something; "the fear of God"; "the Chinese reverence for the dead"; "the French treat food with gentle reverence"; "his respect for the law bordered on veneration"
Wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn

Almost every word in the dictionary has multiple meanings.

The term "fear of God" as used in Scripture also has multiple meanings. It may mean "awe or great respect".

Exodus 18 21 And provide out of all the people able men, such as fear God, in whom there is truth, and that hate avarice, and appoint of them rulers of thousands, and of hundreds, and of fifties, and of tens.

It may also mean "fright".

Hebrews 10 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

The Catholic Church uses both aspects of the word. She teaches that it is fine to do good because of the fear of hell. That means that one fears God's judgement.

But it is better to do good because one loves God.

So, there is fear and there is fear and both aspects of the word are acceptable in this case.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Wondergirl]

I repeat, De Maria: What's your definition of "fear of God"? Let's start with "fear" in the verse you quoted, "Hebrews 10 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

[arcura]

De Maria ,
I believe that fearing God is more respect than being afraid.
Yes a person can fear His wrath but because He is infinite and perfect love and mercy respect is more to my way of thinking,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Tj3]

Man's acceptance is evidence of the HS already at work.

I agree.

[De Maria]

I repeat, De Maria: What's your definition of "fear of God"? Let's start with "fear" in the verse you quoted, "Hebrews 10 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Hebrews 10 is speaking of the punishment for those who trample under the Son of God and His Sacrifice. It speaks of punishment and of God's vengeance.

Therefore, in Hebrews 10, "fearful" means "to be afraid of punishment for wrong doing."

29 How much more, do you think he deserveth worse punishments, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath esteemed the blood of the testament unclean, by which he was sanctified, and hath offered an affront to the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said: Vengeance belongeth to me, and I will repay. And again: The Lord shall judge his people.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Now provide your definition of "fear of God". Lets compare and see which is Biblical.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[De Maria]

De Maria ,
I believe that fearing God is more respect than being afraid.
Yes a person can fear His wrath but because He is infinite and perfect love and mercy respect is more to my way of thinking,
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

I respect your opinion Fred. Those of us who love God need not fear Him. But Scripture is clear that those who do not love God and trample underfoot His Son and the Blood of the Covenant which His Sacrifice provided for our salvation, they need to fear Him:

Romans 12 19 Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Wondergirl]

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Now provide your definition of "fear of God". Lets compare and see which is Biblical.

Huh?

[De Maria]

Huh?

The closest you've come to defining "fear of God" is in message #86.

There's fear and there's fear. What's your definition of "fear of God."

"There's fear and there's fear". That's not exactly a scholarly definition. So define your understanding of the term and lets see whose understanding, yours or mine is more Biblical.

Sincerely,

De Maria

[Wondergirl]

The closest you've come to defining "fear of God" is in message

You were "Catholic Church says this" and "Catholic Church says that." I was curious as to what you say.

Now I am to define "fear" so you can decide if I'm correct? No, thanks.

[De Maria]

You were "Catholic Church says this" and "Catholic Church says that." I was curious as to what you say.

I'm glad you recognize that. I, like Christ, do not carry my message, but the Church's message. And the Church carries Christ's message and Christ carries the Father's message.

That's how it works. If I were teaching my own Gospel, if I ever teach my own Gospel, I am anathema (Gal 1:8).

Now I am to define "fear" so you can decide if I'm correct? No, thanks.

Ok.

Bye!

[Tj3]

I'm glad you recognize that. I, like Christ, do not carry my message, but the Church's message. And the Church carries Christ's message and Christ carries the Father's message.

Actually, from what I see on here, you carry your denomination's message.

[arcura]

The Church existed long before there were denominations so technically the Catholic Church is not a denomination but the mother Church of all those who splintered away.
So the bible and history teach us.
Peace and kindness,
Fred (arcura)

[Wondergirl]

The Church existed long before there were denominations so technically the Catholic Church is not a denomination but the mother Church of all those who splintered away.

That was the one thing wrong with Tom's comment. Denominations came along during the Reformation. And yes, the Catholic Church is the mother of all Christian churches.