[De Maria]

“Christ established the kingdom of God on earth, manifested His Father and Himself by deeds and words, and completed His work by His death, resurrection and glorious Ascension and by the sending of the Holy Spirit.” Dei Verbum V 17

1. What and where is the Kingdom of God?
2. Do we see it in the Old Testament? Does it differ between the Old Testament and the New Testament?
3. How and when do we enter the Kingdom of God?
4. Do you understand the “Kingdom of God” to be the same as “Kingdom of Heaven?”
5. Or do you hold the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God to be two different Kingdoms?

Feel free to answerer one or more of the above.

JoeT

Excellent question Joe!

I've been struggling with it since you posted it several weeks ago.

I mostly struggled with #2. I'll answer 1, 3-5 first.

1. What and where is the Kingdom of God?

There are several answers to this one. First, the Kingdom of God is within us. We are the temple of the Holy Spirit, therefore each of us is the Kingdom of God.

Two, the Kingdom of God is the Church. The Church is the Household of God and God is King. Therefore, the Kingdom of God is the Church.

Three, the Kingdom of God is in Heaven, where God reigns.

3. How and when do we enter the Kingdom of God?

In Baptism:

We are Baptized into the family of God and thererfore into His Kingdom.

4. Do you understand the “Kingdom of God” to be the same as “Kingdom of Heaven?”

Yes, to some extent. The prayer says, "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is the Kingdom of God in a way in which it isn't on earth. See number 1 above.

5. Or do you hold the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God to be two different Kingdoms?

They are different only in the sense that those in heaven have already been made perfect.

2. Do we see it in the Old Testament? Does it differ between the Old Testament and the New Testament?

It differs in what it achieves. In the Old Testament, circumcision made us children of Abraham.

In the New Testament, Baptism makes us children of God, brothers of Jesus.

Sincerely,

[JoeT777]

Excellent question Joe!

I've been struggling with it since you posted it several weeks ago.

I mostly struggled with #2.

Hi Juan:

I thought I had explained, but it turns out I didn't – and I think my reading connects the Old Testament with the New as well as connecting us with God through Christ. The importance of “God's Kingdom” is that it is a direct connection with the Divine by which we are “ruled” by our faith and love of God. I like to make that connection this way:

We take God's Word as being immutable. Consequently, when God promises Moses a Kingdom we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because it's Old Teastament and the law doesn't apply to the New Covenant. Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly heresiarch; the Jews were to be governed by their priests.

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Kingdom” building.

Your opinion is valued, so how does this fit with your understanding of Scripture.

JoeT

[sndbay]

Yes, to some extent. The prayer says, "Your Kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven." Therefore the Kingdom of Heaven is the Kingdom of God in a way in which it isn't on earth. See number 1 above.

,

DeMaria do we agree --->To the extent that the Kingdom of Heaven is as Matthew 22:2 brings to mind. "inheriting", or as being "heirs of the Kingdom"

Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

And here on earth God's Kingdom would be with the Holy Spirit within each individual, known as children of God.. Obedience and righteousness (baptized to Newness of Life ) gifted with the Holy Spirit and dead in Christ.
The names and appellatives of "the Church" are never used of the Kingdom (Eph. 1:23; 2:21; 4:4, 16; 5:30. Col. 1:24. 1Tim. 3:15). The privilege of "that Church" which consists of the partakers of "a heavenly calling", Heb. 3:1
Rev. 20:4-6, will be to reign with Christ over the earthly Kingdom, whereas that Kingdom will be "under the whole heaven" (Dan. 7:27).

[sndbay]

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one; in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant, which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King. To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense. However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church. Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Kingdom” building.

Matthew 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. referenced to the New Israel prophesied (Isa 66: 7-14)
Matthew 21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? (Ps 118:22 Acts 4:10-12)

Psalms 118:22-23 The stone [which] the builders refused is become the head [stone] of the corner. This is the LORD'S doing; it [is] marvellous in our eyes.

Acts 4:10-11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, [even] by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.


1 Peter 2:6-7-8 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on Him shall not be confounded.Unto you therefore which believe [He is] precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, [even to them] which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed

[De Maria]

Hi Juan:

I thought I had explained, but it turns out I didn't – and I think my reading connects the Old Testament with the New as well as connecting us with God through Christ. The importance of “God's Kingdom” is that it is a direct connection with the Divine by which we are “ruled” by our faith and love of God. I like to make that connection this way:

We take God's Word as being immutable.

Correct.

Consequently, when God promises Moses a Kingdom we shouldn't dismiss it out of hand because it's Old Teastament and the law doesn't apply to the New Covenant.

You lost me there. Who dismisses Moses Kingdom?

Moses is told, “If therefore you will hear my voice, and keep my covenant, you shall be my peculiar possession above all people: for all the earth is mine. And you shall be to me a priestly kingdom, and a holy nation.” (Ex.19: 5, 6), which is the Old Testament equivalent of Matt 16:18. The promise made to Moses is an integral part of the Old Testament. The Jewish Kingdom was both a spiritual and temporal Kingdom with a priestly heresiarch; the Jews were to be governed by their priests.

True. But therein lies the difference.

Neither the Levitical priests nor even the High Priests could enter behind the Veil. Yet we who are baptized into Christ, even the lowliest of us, exist within the Veil. We are sons in the Son.

Christ didn't overturn this Kingdom by creating a new one;

Agreed. He went into Hell and released the sons of Abraham to bring them into the land which was promised them so long ago. His Kingdom in Heaven.

in fact He couldn't because His ministry was the fulfillment of the Old Covenant,

Agreed.

which included the Messianic Kingdom along with the prophecies for a new King.

Because He is the Messiah and the King of Kings.

To overthrow this Kingdom would have been to over throw himself – which of course is nonsense.

Agreed.

However what Christ was to do was to turn over the 'Key' of the Kingdom to a new tenant, what is today and the gentile Kingdom we call the Roman Catholic Church.

I'm Catholic, so no argument. Well, except that:
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Which is the reason that in Matthew, we hear Christ say, “I say to you [the Pharisees] that the kingdom of God shall be taken from you and shall be given to a nation yielding the fruits thereof.” This too is a pronouncement of on Mt. Sinai. Its here we see Christ conquering the world in the Messianic vision of David; but instead of “nation building” it is “Kingdom” building.

I don't see much difference in "nation" or "kingdom". Christ's nation is a Kingdom.

Your opinion is valued, so how does this fit with your understanding of Scripture.

JoeT

I'd say we agree overall. Except that bit about dismissing Moses' Kingdom I didn't understand at the beginning.

[De Maria]

DeMaria do we agree --->To the extent that the Kingdom of Heaven is as Matthew 22:2 brings to mind. "inheriting", or as being "heirs of the Kingdom"

Yes, we are members of the Royal Family, so to speak. We dare to say, "Abba, Father".

Romans 8:15
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.

Matthew 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

And here on earth God's Kingdom would be with the Holy Spirit within each individual, known as children of God.. Obedience and righteousness (baptized to Newness of Life ) gifted with the Holy Spirit and dead in Christ.[/quote]

I would say, "alive in Christ". But I agree.

The names and appellatives of "the Church" are never used of the Kingdom (Eph. 1:23; 2:21; 4:4, 16; 5:30. Col. 1:24. 1Tim. 3:15). The privilege of "that Church" which consists of the partakers of "a heavenly calling", Heb. 3:1

Agreed. We are sons in the Son.

Rev. 20:4-6, will be to reign with Christ over the earthly Kingdom, whereas that Kingdom will be "under the whole heaven" (Dan. 7:27).

[/quote]

Dan 7
27And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven,

The Kingdom on earth...

shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Shal be absorbed by the Kingdom of heaven.

They will be one and the same Kingdom. That is what Jesus did when He desended into hell and brought the children of Abraham into the heavenly Kingdom. The very same Kingdom which He revealed was "upon you."

Luke 11:20
But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.

To me, its as though we are a Kingdom of one. We are one in Christ Jesus.

John 17
21That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Does that make sense?

[sndbay]

To me, its as though we are a Kingdom of one. We are one in Christ Jesus.

Does that make sense?

Yes although you are saying it a little differently then what I do. We are with the Holy Spirit made one with Christ. As was Christ with the Holy Spirit one with The Father.

As (Col 2:9-10-11-12-13-14-15) In Christ dwells the fulness of the Godhead bodily, and we are complete in him.

My reference of dead in Christ is dead to this world (newness of Life) able to raise as He did.

Romans 8:10-11 And if Christ [be] in you, the body [is] dead because of sin; but the Spirit [is] life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

[JoeT777]

Correct.



You lost me there. Who dismisses Moses Kingdom?



True. But therein lies the difference.

Neither the Levitical priests nor even the High Priests could enter behind the Veil. Yet we who are baptized into Christ, even the lowliest of us, exist within the Veil. We are sons in the Son.



Agreed. He went into Hell and released the sons of Abraham to bring them into the land which was promised them so long ago. His Kingdom in Heaven.



Agreed.



Because He is the Messiah and the King of Kings.



Agreed.



I'm Catholic, so no argument. Well, except that:
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.



I don't see much difference in "nation" or "kingdom". Christ's nation is a Kingdom.



I'd say we agree overall. Except that bit about dismissing Moses' Kingdom I didn't understand at the beginning.

Ok, I think I can deal with this.

[arcura]

Joe,
I think that I can also deal with it.
Fred