[tsila1777]

Well, I've been driving and riding in cars and trucks and farm machinery for over 60 years, and I've never had even one serious accident or injury. Nor have I ever had a life-threatening or disabling illness. Do I have better evidence for God's existence than you do?

No, that wasn't even her point. Psa 91:11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee, they shall bear thee up lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. She said she felt like her feet were not even touching the ground. The angels were on the job taking care of her.

I like the saying: if the devil isn't coming against you, it's because you're walking the same way.

[wildandblue]

Well maybe I've got my answer in Ezekiel 34. I love to do lists:
Strenthen the weak
Heal the sick
Bind up the injured
Bring back the strayed
Seek the lost.
Now if you all will excuse me I'm going to go in and knock back an ice cold bottle of milk before I get started.

[wildandblue]

No, that wasn't even her point. Psa 91:11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee, they shall bear thee up lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. She said she felt like her feet were not even touching the ground. The angels were on the job taking care of her.

I like the saying: if the devil isn't coming against you, it's because you're walking the same way.

Thanks! My wife and I say that country song by Martina McBride, Wild Angels is our theme song. "It must have been hard, it must have been tough, keeping up with crazy fools like us":rolleyes:

[ordinaryguy]

No, that wasn't even her point. Psa 91:11 For He shall give His angels charge over thee to keep thee, they shall bear thee up lest thou dash thy foot against a stone. She said she felt like her feet were not even touching the ground. The angels were on the job taking care of her.

Her point was:

I was just giving an example for why I personally believe in Him.

My point was that if coming through a car wreck unscathed is a reason to believe in God, surely having no wreck at all would be an even better reason.

I like the saying: if the devil isn't coming against you, it's because you're walking the same way.

Surely you aren't saying that the lack of accidents in my life is evidence that I'm walking with the devil?

It just seems to me foolish and misguided to suppose that the health and safety of our physical body is any indication of God's existence or love for us. Sooner or later we all die as a result of accident or illness.

[wildandblue]

Well, guys I badly wanted a new car, was driving a 12 year old one. Everywhere I went I saw everybody else with shiny new ones. Why not me? I was working 3 jobs and couldn't get ahead. Then the car wreck happened on a foggy morning before sunrise. I didn't have collision on a 12 year old car, had to drive for a week on one of those donut spare tires till I could get a replacement. It was 20 below zero but I pulled the sheetmetal off the car and pounded it back out. If people where thinking my car looked bad before, let me tell you. Then my plant closed and I was out of a job, they'd even raided our pension funds.. No money, no job, no car to go and look for another one. But one short year later I had a new and better job and I actually walked in to the dealer and drove myself a new car right off the showroom floor. See, if God had caved, did what I want when I wanted it, I would have wrecked the new car back then! But He stuck to The Plan, which was much better than my idea.

[Credendovidis]

But one short year later I had a new and better job and I actually walked in to the dealer and drove myself a new car right off the showroom floor. See, if God had caved, did what I want when I wanted it, I would have wrecked the new car back then!! But He stuck to The Plan, which was much better than my idea.

??

What is that for extreme subjective argument ? You got a new job because there was a job available, you applied for it, and you got it.
And because you had a new and even better job, you could go to a showroom and get yourself a new car.

But what has that to do with the claim to the existence of a deity called "God" being the "Creator"?

:confused:

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[Credendovidis]

My point was that if coming through a car wreck unscathed is a reason to believe in God, surely having no wreck at all would be an even better reason.
Surely you aren't saying that the lack of accidents in my life is evidence that I'm walking with the devil?

You have just been lucky ! No deities involved !

It just seems to me foolish and misguided to suppose that the health and safety of our physical body is any indication of God's existence or love for us. Sooner or later we all die as a result of accident or illness.

Spot on ! And nothing that can be done about that !

:rolleyes:

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[Allheart]

I completely agree with OG, that you shouldn't attribute health, good health, as a sign that God exist. It can in some circumstances, but what about those beautiful people stricken with cancer, or those beautiful starving children, is God not right there by their side?

I also agree with Wildandblue, that if you give God the keys, to the car of life, His loving plan for you, will guide you.

As OG so wonderfully stated, we all, sadly will be stricken with some illness or circumstance that will cease our life on this earth, but it is my belief, that God will make that difficult road, much easier.

God carried me through my whole childhood. I remember sitting on the edge of the bed, feet didn't even touch the ground, and smiling and praying, knowing that God was right there with me and would continue to be with me and get me through a great difficulty that I knew was only minutes away.

For me, the proof that some seek, is all around, it's what the eyes behold and the heart sees, that helps one to believe.

I know some say there life is just fine without the believing that there is a God, and would be willing to believe once they obtain proof, but that is the wonder of God. It is my belief, that if one would open their eyes and see God's love, they would understand the glorious gifts they now enjoy are sent from above, and would be even that more precious to behold.

I wish I had the words that would help others to see, not to force my view, but so others are not left out in a place that they don't have to be. But I don't have the words, or the proof that some seek. I just have prayers that all will find their way, and keep me on the right path to our Loving Father.

I can only share with all of you, that when I try and run this life by myself, it never seems to work out too well, but when I give those keys over to God, the road is so much easier.

[wildandblue]

I'm saying that if God had given me that new car when I first brought the subject up with Him, the car I wrecked on that hill would have been the new car, which I would have gotten just before losing my job. But He knew this and didn't give it to me then. He decided, no, let's let that person hit you in the old car, it's junk anyway, no big loss. All He wanted was for me to survive that accident, possessions aren't that important to Him. I was meant to save a friend a few years later, as I already said. I had prayed for him for about 40 years and after his accident he was a changed person, and I can tell you that a few years after that at the end of his life he accepted Christ although he'd been alienated from Him for most of his life.

[Credendovidis]

I'm saying that if God had given me that new car when I first brought the subject up with Him, the car I wrecked on that hill would have been the new car ....

That sounds like the argument used by the Ugandan soldier driving the truck that hit my car while I was waiting in front of a red robot, waiting patiently for it to change green.

He stated : "the accident was your fault, because if you had not come to Uganda, and stand here, I could never have hit you"...

W+B : that argument is of the same logic and quality as yours...

:rolleyes:

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[Fr_Chuck]

But it is exactly that, you find you forget your keys, so you go back into the house, that puts you 2 min latter so you are not hit by the bus.

Or you are 2 min latter and get hit by the bolt of lightning, one person says it just happens, to others, God has made things happen for a purpose.

[Credendovidis]

But it is exactly that ....

No Chuck, that is a pure nonsensical and illogical argument.
The soldier driver caused the accident because he was driving too fast or was un-attentive, and reacted much too late. My presence had nothing to do with that.

Similar that bus or lightning accident : God (if she exists) had nothing to do with that. Unless of course you can PROVE with objective, serious, and logical arguments otherwise...

:rolleyes:

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[Fr_Chuck]

Bullet comes into my home, the bible research book I am holding stops it, who is the cause for me holding that bood at that exact time, To me God had to have a hand in it.

[Allheart]

Oh I most certainly do believe that God intercedes on our behalf. So many of my life experiences does prove that, and I am most grateful.

I know that my husband was an absolute gift from God. The blessing that He gave me, each day does prove that it was God's hands that brought us together. I don't know why God shined on me so favorably, and I ask myself that daily, but still am most grateful.

My girlfriend was shot down for so many jobs, but in truth, the jobs were not the right ones for her. The environment was very poor. And I kept telling her, it wasn't the ones that were meant for her, but she never lost hope or faith. And finally :), just this week she started the absolute perfect job for her.

God knows what is best for all of us, we just have to be sure and listen and know that He does direct things in our lives, and they all will be meant to be good for us. There is a gift in every blessing.

[wildandblue]

Yes I think I would be better off praying for guidance and direction rather than just asking for Things. God sends rain on the just and the unjust, because he loves each one, not because of their deeds but because His love is unconditional. And as for dying or not dying, as soon as sin came into the world, it brought death. Imagine being in a horrible wreck or badly burned in a fire, but you could never die! That would be worse than dying I think.

[Credendovidis]

Bullet comes into my home, the bible research book I am holding stops it, who is the cause for me holding that bood at that exact time, To me God had to have a hand in it.

No Chuck : your hands had a "hand in it" !

:rolleyes:

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[Credendovidis]

Oh I most certainly do believe that God intercedes on our behalf. So many of my life experiences does prove that, and I am most grateful.

Strange than that so far all human historical records indicate that never any amputee - despite prayer or any other request to "God" to intercede - ever had a hand, arm, foot, or leg restored. Now : why would that be? Billions of wishes over time are suggested to be taken care of by "God".

But why not ever any wish by any amputee to "God" ? Is there perhaps a special plan "God" has with amputees?

Or may it be that all these claimed intercedings (?) by "God" are just "lucky" circumstances, are all these failed intercedings (?) by "God" not just "unlucky" circumstances, and are any intercedings (?) by "God" just impossible because either "God" does not exist, or does not care at all about any human being?

Is it not perhaps correct that there is no "God" at all?
At least that would explain perfectly and convincingly why amputees do not grow new limbs...

:rolleyes:

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[Allheart]

Strange than that so far all human historical records indicate that never any amputee - despite prayer or any other request to "God" to intercede - ever had a hand, arm, foot, or leg restored. Now : why would that be? Billions of wishes over time are suggested to be taken care of by "God".

But why not ever any wish by any amputee to "God" ? Is there perhaps a special plan "God" has with amputees?

Or may it be that all these claimed intercedings (?) by "God" are just "lucky" circumstances, are all these failed intercedings (?) by "God" not just "unlucky" circumstances, and are any intercedings (?) by "God" just impossible because either "God" does not exist, or does not care at all about any human being?

Is it not perhaps correct that there is no "God" at all?
At least that would explain perfectly and convincingly why amputees do not grow new limbs .....

:rolleyes:

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Oh Cred, but that could have been God's plan, and that may sound cruel, but what we don't know about today, somehow that answer does lie in tomorrow. Have you ever wondered why something didn't turn out the way you wanted it to, but the days, months even years, you are so glad it didn't turn out the way you thought it wanted to.

How many people have been stricken with an illness and then used that illness to help others?

Remember, God does give us free will. I smoke ( I had stopped for over a year... ugh, but then picked up the awful habit), if and when I get cancer, should I expect God to cure me, of something that I set in motion with my free will.

Now this is not to say at all that amputees by any means caused this. Many many have not. I think of our brave soldiers, who have lost many limbs, but I bet if you talk to them,
You will find some, who are even closer to God. Who are now using their disability to help others.

God's plan is a masterful one and it is very hard for the human mind to understand fully, but that is where faith kicks in.

[JoeCanada76]

Mature Christian, I do not believe any of us are Mature Christians. I would say Maturing Christians, because as believers we are constantly growing and learning. So is it fair to say that some believers are more mature then others. We are told not to judge one another, but I see that all the time. Saturday night I was at a catholic service and one lady before service started just came out of confession, sat down in the pew and this other lady sat beside her. They were gossiping about other people the whole service. Talking through the whole thing. Judging others. I could not believe it. I still extended my hand out in piece but am I being judgemental towards them? I am not perfect, no one is. We all fall short. So I guess we need to lift each other up. No matter what our faults may be. Love is to truly be there for one another. Continually growing and learning and maturing, but there is no such thing as a mature Christian in my opinion.

[Credendovidis]

Oh Cred, but that could have been God's plan ...

Yes Allheart. That may indeed be that way. However : "Oxham's razor" states that almost always the simplest answer to a question is the correct one. Therefore it seems more logical to assume that there is no "God" at all, as that explains the lack of regrowth of limbs perfectly and convincingly... All other assumptions require another unsupported suggestion or questionable additional claim.

"God's ways are inscrutable" is a clincher, not an explanation !

:rolleyes:

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