[michealb]

It would make science a lot easier.

PersonA: Why did such and such occur?
PersonB: because god wanted it that way.
PersonA: Sounds right to me lets go spend the rest of our grant money on beer.

But I've said before I find religion interesting and I probably know more about all of the different types of religoins that 95% of the people out there. It just very interesting how a large group of people get caught up into and believing their cultures fictional stories as true. Even if you say Christianity is the one true religion it still mean 99% of the religions out there are false.

[gromitt82]

This isn't a religious board. It's a place for religious discussion. Religion is interesting to atheists because it's an intriguing phenomenon. Many atheists would love to believe in God. The human desire to have security in knowing what happens when we die, to know where we came from, to know what consciousness is, is a very natural drive that all humans seem to have. We wonder how other people have come to the conclusion that the answer is God, and sure, if you can pursuade us with real meaningful evidence, we'd love that.

Unfortunately, our only proce is strictly based on Faith. Faith in that GOD created everything and faith in the Jesus (whose wxistence by the way has been historically proven) was the Son of God, and hence God himself who resurrected after the third day.
We cannot prove, of course, but atheists cannot prove the contrary either.

Therefore, I think it is just a matter of believing or not believing. A little bit like Hamlet, i.e. to believe or not believe.

[michealb]

whose wxistence by the way has been historically proven

Ehh not so much. The only evidence for Jesus is the bible. The records at the time don't actually show anyone by that name. Look for third party evidence of his existence and you might be surprised. That's another topic.

[NeedKarma]

Gromitt,
To each their own.
Remember that you are also an un-believer in lots of other stuff. And I'm a believer in a lot of other stuff. We are both believers and un-believers at the same time. :)

[arcura]

Capuchin,
I hope that you do discover ample evidence that there Is a God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[NeedKarma]

Fred,
I hope you discover that you can live your life without a god.
Have a great day,
NK

[arcura]

NeedKarma ,
That hope from you to me is a nightmare to my mind and belief.
I hope that you can understand that.
I am pleased that you are happy with your belief, though I disagree with it.
I'm sad, though, that you will some day find out to late that there is a God.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[NeedKarma]

I'm sad, though, that you will some day find out to late that there is a God.

I'm sad for you too Fred.

[Unknown008]

NK, how can you say that we don't know how you feel? I myself, was an atheist, then found God, things in my life changed, and I came to know a better meaning to life, more happiness in a way.

However, I don't think that you ever was a christian, or never reached the proper 'level' to get that happiness that I (and others) can feel.

That is why I'm sad for you... You've been given the choice, but you either reject it, or postpone it to an indefinite time.

[NeedKarma]

Yes, I was. I was baptised, went to catholic school, church, and even private boys catholic schools. I most likely have more friends of different religious or non-religious beliefs than you do. The fact that you feel that I can't be happy without being like you says more about you than it does about me. Yes I made a choice and I'm a happy guy. That's the way I'm raising my children too: no bible in this house, I teach them to respect others and respect yourself among other things. Respect is earned as an individual not simply being part as a group. My circle of friends are good people, regardless of whatever faith they choose. Being a christian does not automaticallly make you a good person, we all know that.

[Unknown008]

That means that my second possibility applies, you didn't have a deeper relation with God, to feel that happiness...

[NeedKarma]

Ok, if that makes feel more superior you can go ahead believe that if you wish.

[gromitt82]

ehh not so much. The only evidence for Jesus is the bible. The records at the time don't actually show anyone by that name. Look for third party evidence of his existence and you might be surprised. That's another topic.

While it is understandable that some people may debate over Jesus’ divinity I think that, at this stage of the game only a few dare discuss the historicity of Jesus.
I will just give herewith a short list, which could be much more exhaustive, of those writers who have referred to Jesus in their writings. Most of them were practically almost comtemporary of Him.

Fathers of the Church:
St. Paul (Saul of Tarsus) Roman citizen (ca 5 - 67 AD)
Pope Clement, of Rome, Roman Citizen (+ca 00 AD)
St. Philip of Hierapolis (+80 AD)
Papias, Bishop of Hierapolis (before 70 AD – 155 AD Smyrna)
Saint Polycarp of Smyrna (ca. 69 – ca. 155)

Pagan or non Christian Historians:
Yosef ben Mattyyahu (AD 37 – c. 100), Jewish origin. Although when he became a Roman citizen, changed his name to Titus Flavius Josephus. (His writings provide a significant, extra-Biblical to such figures as Pontius Pilate, Herod the Great, Agrippa I and Agrippa II, John the Baptist, James the brother of Jesus, and a to Jesus (who appears mentioned 4 times in his writings, not as Son of God, but as a “singular prophet and saint man” He was noa a Christian but a Jew.

Publius (or Gaius) Cornelius Tacitus (ca. 56 – ca. 117) was a senator and a historian of the Roman Empire. His Annals is one of the first-known secular-historic records to mention Jesus . He was not a Christian.J

Thallus of Samaria, jewish historian who wrote in Greek. It is uncertain when he wrote, but it was probably in the early 2nd century. He refers to Jesus’ crucifixion when attempting to account SPECIFICALLY for the darkness surrounding His crucifixion. In other words, the strange darkness was REAL and a topic of scholarly discussion.

Phlegon, of Tralles, Another Greek writer and freedman of the emperor Hadrian, who lived in the 2nd century. He also recorded this event as well, specifying the very HOURS OF THE EVENT!

Lucian of Samosata (c. A.D. 125 – after A.D. 180) Assyrian rhetorician and satirist who wrote in Greek. In his satire The Passing of Peregrinus, its character, Poteus, takes advantage of the generosity and gullibility of Christians, “a sect lead by a man named Yesus”. This is one of the earliest surviving pagan perceptions of Christianity. He obviously was a pagan.
Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus, (ca. 69/75 – after 130), was a Roman historian during the Roman Empire. His most famous work “Lives of the twelve Caesars” When referring to Emperor Tiberius he mentions the problems created in the Eastern Roman provinces by a “so-called Jesus, King of the Jews”.
Celsus, who was a 2nd century Greek philosopher and fierce opponent of Christianity. In his work “The True Word” against the Christian religion he claims Jesus is nothing but a thaumaturge...!
Aelius Claudius Galenus (129-200 AD) was a prominent Roman physician and philosopher of Greek origin. In some of his medical texts he mentions some of Jesus’ extraordinary healings.
Also Jesus is mentioned in 4 different pages in the Talmud, as a prophet.
In the Qu’ram 4:171; 5: 111 it can be read that Muhammad, believed Jesus was the Messiah, Allah's anointed messenger. That means that, at least, Muhammad believed Jesus had existed as a person.
Throughout history hundreds of scholars have debated over Jesus’ divinity but none, that I know of, over his existence.
Another interesting point that, I believe, reveals the “mauvaise foi” of some modern writers regarding the person of Jesus in particular and of Christianity in general, is that while they ignore the historical evidence of Jesus as a human being living in the first century, I have never seen anybody disputing the evidence of much older saint men like those from the old Testament (David, Elijah, Solomon, etc.) or Siddhārtha Gautama Buddha( from c. 563 BC to 483 BC), Confucius (551 BC - 479 BC) or Lao Tse, who lived in the 6th century BC or King Menes, Egyptian king allegedly founder of the First dynasty, sometime around 3100 BC!!
Perhaps you can explain that...

[gromitt82]

gromitt,
To each their own.
Remember that you are also an un-believer in lots of other stuff. And I'm a believer in a lot of other stuff. We are both believers and un-believers at the same time. :)

Sure, as I said, it is a matter of BELIEVE OR NOT BELIEVE

[ernestpaquin]

My name is Ernest Norman Paquin. I am not sure if this is an answer but here is a couple theories of mine;
I believe that a time travel accident happened in the future which wrongfully sent a traveler back in time to the Garden of Eden where he crashed landed and died. Adam and Eve were the first people to come upon the incicdent after hearing a loud thunderous noise. They immdeiately felt the effects of the radioactive fallout released from the accident and were also the first people to withness death (the traveler). The Radioactive fallout eventually spread out over vast distances and over the years had engulfed the entire world. Radiation effects included perverse electrical stimulation absorbed then accepted in the minds of both Man and Beast, hence knowledge of Evil. The traveler sent back in time who crashed landed and died in the Garden of Eden was and has been mistaken, adopted or covered up and promoted over the centuries to be the Devil. The incident in the Garden of Eden perhaps was scientific that became religious. The Human race I believe was created long before the incident in the Garden of Eden. Adam and Eve were the first people to feel the effects of this event, and the first unkonwingly to inherit knowledge of Evil and witness death.
They say Science is man's best guess, some religion has to be as well. --Ernest Norman Paquin, author of "Find Me, Eve".

P.S. There is no Devil, think about it.

[shadowwatcher]

last night, i suddenly started to mull over how little we actually know about the notion of what the word god implies or should mean.

We are no question influenced by the mythological references to gods and goddesses as persons with human feelings and emotions and, more than all, by the figure of jesus christ, which we may tend to visualize more like a man who died in the cross to redeem us, than as god himself.

So i said to myself. let us imagine the most absolute void and emptiness some 15 billion years ago, which is not yesterday! then, all of a sudden, a tremendous explosion started the expansion of the universe, and gradually, galaxies started to develop, materialize and come into being to reach the 500 billion where, previously, there was nothing. Each galaxy including, in turn, billions of stars system, planets, and so one and so forth…

but, what about the size of this universe, 15 billion years later?

The nearest star to earth (proxima centauri) is supposed to be at 4.24 light years away, or some 25 trillion miles!! but, our earth is not in one end of this universe, but more or less in the middle of what we know. In addition, we can see stars and galaxies everywhere. Nobody knows how far away the farthest star is. However, some scholars claim the known universe stretches some 94 billion light years across.

do we really assume what this means?

In the meantime, some 4,5 billion years ago our earth and the other planets in our solar system formed out of disk-shaped mass of dust and gas left over from the formation of our sun. And little by little, the outer layer of our small and insignificant planet cooled to form a solid crust when water began accumulating in the atmosphere, to gradually become a planet that can sustain life!!

and life it has indeed sustained. From the primitive sea algae (perhaps 1 billion years old) to modern man. 230 million years ago we already have evidence of some species of dinosaurs. And between 1994 and 1995, some paleontologists, investigating the archeological site of atapuerca (in central spain) found over 80 bone fragments from five or six hominids dating to between 850.000 to 780.000 years ago.

now then, what do all these scientifically proven facts demonstrate?

That god is really amazing!!

For we have to imagine the incredible thought that there must be a supernatural being so powerful as to create all this universe we now know and everything else we still don’t know. and trying to imagine god as creator of all this is really a most frightening thought, indeed.

"the heavens declare the glory of god; and the firmament proclaims its builder’s craft. One day to the next conveys that message; one night to the next imparts that knowledge. There is no word or sound; no voice is heard. Yet, their report goes forth through all the earth, their message to the ends of the world. God has pitched there a tent for the sun” (psalm 19:1-5).

perhaps we should start thinking of how futile our discussions are in front of the awe inspired by god, who has created everything that surround us, and who 15 billion years ago decided to let his divine blow explode into the so called big bang!!

thoughts on the above will be appreciated.

your god can't help you now!

[xxariesxx]

Religion is such a touchy subject. It's really great that people talk about it and share ideas though, it's the only way we grow.

Personally I don't believe in practicing religion. It's an aspect of a culture and society, not a given law of existence. Take for example something as simple as in our culture how it is to be expected to be cheerful and smiling constantly. That is completely normal in western society. But to do the same in another, say Russia, that behavior is not seen as normal. You would be an odd person to greet everyone with a smile. Does this mean that their culture is "wrong"? Are westerners "better" than Russians? Of course not. It's the same with religions. Christianity is the norm in western society, just as Buddhism would be in Asian societies, or Islam in the middle east (very generally speaking). Does this mean that we have the adacity to think that we are better than these people too? We are not any better and we know no more. Religion is not something universal; it is a product of our environment.

One thing I think is really upsetting is that some try to claim that religion brings people together. Religion causes a lot more distance and separation between people than it brings together. Sure there are occasions when someone "finds God" and so becomes connected to society again. But is that because they actually believe there is a God, or were they searching for a connection to humanity that that was able to fulfill? It's rare that someone would find a religion if they are happy and productive. It's only after some kind of distress. These things might offend people but they can't be ignored.
We separate each other based on if our religion accepts them or not (although that is always counter to what religion teaches). It is only another category to further separate the human race. If we ALL, everyone in every belief, took a step back and saw how completely the same we all are, many things in the world would be quite different.

I think it's fascinating how willing we are to believe something so unconditionally without delving deeper into it. Some believe that homosexuality is wrong because the Bible states it is wrong. And everything the bible states must be completely true, correct? Yet:
"Behold, here is my daughter a maiden, and his concubine; them I will bring out now, and humble ye them, and do with them what seemeth good unto you: but unto this man do not so vile a thing. But the men would not hearken to him: so the man took his concubine, and brought her forth unto them; and they knew her, and abused her all the night until the morning: and when the day began to spring, they let her go." (Judges 19:24-25)
According to the logic that the Bible is a guidebook, complete truth, then apparently the rape of man's daughter is acceptable (I apologize if I step on any toes here).

We have to have the strength to look deep within ourselves and be honest about the difference between what we want to be true and what is actuality; or at the very least to think more clearly, openly, and intelligently about how we judge and treat others and view our wonderful universe.

Zeitgeist - The Movie - Watch the original at the bottom of the page first. A worthwhile 2 hours.

That's my 2 cents

[arcura]

NeedKarma,
Live well and be happy.
Life is short compared to eternity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

[NeedKarma]

NeedKarma,
Live well and be happy.
Life is short compared to eternity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred

Thanks mate. I know this life is short, especially when you have young children and you watch them grow up. That's why I'm making the best of it. There's no second chance!

[gromitt82]

your god can't help you now!

Would you mind explaining what situation are you referring to when you state that GOD can't help me now? For I'm enjoying another day of my already very long life just because God's Will is that my time IS NOT JUST DUE!
I'M READY TO GO WHEN MY TIME ARRIVES and I do hope GOD will then help me THEN to go.
Other than that, I do not want anything else. GOD has been very generous with me by giving me a wonderful wife, 4 magnificent sons and 7 beautiful grandsons. I'm enjoying a pretty good health for my age and so are all the members of my family. In another year, GOD permitting, I will be able to celebrate my Diamond Wedding (60 years). So can you please tell me what else can I ask for.
Perhaps you are thinking of material possessions. But in that connection I have ALL I need, so I fail to see what you are talking about.