[Vacuum7]

Paraclete: I don't want the U.S. to REDUCE its carbon footprint! Trees love Carbon Dioxide! I want the U.S.'s carbon footprint to expand!

CARBON FOOTPRINT: ANOTHER HOAX! Example: The carbon footprint of a Toyota Prius or even a Tesla is LARGER than the carbon footprint of a Cadillac Escalade expanded out across the life of the vehicle! The rechargeable cell/batteries for these vehicles are incredibly large in terms of carbon footprints! Yet, the crazy environmental bunches keep pushing electric cars! SUCH A FARCE!

[tomder55]

waste disposal and inceration is a cost saved by recycling. in addition the cost of production is less using recycled materials As an example ;

production using recycled aluminum can cut costs in half. That’s because much less energy is required to process recycled aluminum than to extract it raw. The savings is cycled back to consumers, who can buy goods for less. The

labor force for recycling generates nearly $240 billion in annual revenue. There is also an international market for it as countries with fewer natural resources seek to purchase recycled raw material .This is especially true of countries with a shortage of forests . They buy recycled paper . From someone in industry I find it indispensable .It saves my company a fortune is waste disposal fees .

[paraclete]

Paraclete: I don't want the U.S. to REDUCE its carbon footprint! Trees love Carbon Dioxide! I want the U.S.'s carbon footprint to expand!

CARBON FOOTPRINT: ANOTHER HOAX! Example: The carbon footprint of a Toyota Prius or even a Tesla is LARGER than the carbon footprint of a Cadillac Escalade expanded out across the life of the vehicle! The rechargeable cell/batteries for these vehicles are incredibly large in terms of carbon footprints! Yet, the crazy environmental bunches keep pushing electric cars! SUCH A FARCE!

While I sympathise with the idea that CO2 is not the primary source of AGW, and that even AGW is a hoax, the fossil fuel reserves are finite and so the development of electric cars has been delayed over 100 years, some of the earliest vehicles were electric. lithium ion batteries are not the answer but this is no reason to abandon research

[jlisenbe]

The United States has at least a hundred years reserve of natural gas.

[Vacuum7]

jlisenbe: You know it: The U.S. doesn't need to grovel in the dirt in an attempt to place nice with Mother Nature: We have what we need! Let the rest of the world find theirs, WE HAVE WHAT WE NEED TO GET BY!!!

Look, if Carbon Footprint is THE CRITERIA OF JUDGEMENT, then electric vehicles ARE NOT THE WAY TO GO....its a simple, straight forward comparative. And, guess what else? The damn batteries aren't even made in the U.S. because the process is so ENVIRONMENTALLY UNFRIENDLY! So, foreign countries employ foreign workforces to acquire revenues in the production of battery cells, all the while polluting the hell out of the environment so we can put these batteries in weak arse vehicles and run around proclaiming that we are helping the ENVIRONMENT AND SAVING THE PLANET! GOD HELP US ALL: The American People are entirely obsessed with the "Feel-Good" sensations....this is such a strange desire.

Tomder55: I am in production in the Pulp & Paper Industry: I can tell you that the U.S. P&P Industry SHOULD HAVE NEVER ENTERED INTO THE RECYCLING SCAM! We have more natural, reproducible, and superior fiber loads than any other nation in the world, challenged only by Canada (mismanaged Socialist nation/screwed-up industry) and Russia (vast woodstores much of which is yet to be harvested)….it is because the U.S. has all this VIRGIN fiber store that we should have never got sucked into the RECYCLE SCAM....by engaging in this mess, all we did was lose our 100% Virgin Fiber Exclusivity and become just another COMMODITY SUPPLIER to world markets....Foreign countries clamor to BUY our recycled fiber loads in pure rubbish form and they also seek to buy HIGH VIRGIN CONTENT CONTAINERBOARD MADE IN THE U.S. and they do this to OBTAIN our virgin fibers for their domestic packaging operations. These foreign competitors can compete with the U.S. when we make Recycled or Recycled Content papers but THEY CAN'T COMPETE WITH THE U.S. WHEN WE STICK TO 100% VIRGIN FIBER PAPER PRODUCTION. My point is: The U.S. doesn't need to roll around in the mud with the foreigners when WE HOLD THE ADVANTAGE! The U.S. needs to learn that when we get a guy down, SHINE YOUR BOOTS ON HIS ARSE, DON'T HELP HIM UP!

[paraclete]

jlisenbe: You know it: The U.S. doesn't need to grovel in the dirt in an attempt to place nice with Mother Nature: We have what we need! Let the rest of the world find theirs, WE HAVE WHAT WE NEED TO GET BY!!!

Look, if Carbon Footprint is THE CRITERIA OF JUDGEMENT, then electric vehicles ARE NOT THE WAY TO GO....its a simple, straight forward comparative. And, guess what else? The damn batteries aren't even made in the U.S. because the process is so ENVIRONMENTALLY UNFRIENDLY! So, foreign countries employ foreign workforces to acquire revenues in the production of battery cells, all the while polluting the hell out of the environment so we can put these batteries in weak arse vehicles and run around proclaiming that we are helping the ENVIRONMENT AND SAVING THE PLANET! GOD HELP US ALL: The American People are entirely obsessed with the "Feel-Good" sensations....this is such a strange desire.

Tomder55: I am in production in the Pulp & Paper Industry: I can tell you that the U.S. P&P Industry SHOULD HAVE NEVER ENTERED INTO THE RECYCLING SCAM! We have more natural, reproducible, and superior fiber loads than any other nation in the world, challenged only by Canada (mismanaged Socialist nation/screwed-up industry) and Russia (vast woodstores much of which is yet to be harvested)….it is because the U.S. has all this VIRGIN fiber store that we should have never got sucked into the RECYCLE SCAM....by engaging in this mess, all we did was lose our 100% Virgin Fiber Exclusivity and become just another COMMODITY SUPPLIER to world markets....Foreign countries clamor to BUY our recycled fiber loads in pure rubbish form and they also seek to buy HIGH VIRGIN CONTENT CONTAINERBOARD MADE IN THE U.S. and they do this to OBTAIN our virgin fibers for their domestic packaging operations. These foreign competitors can compete with the U.S. when we make Recycled or Recycled Content papers but THEY CAN'T COMPETE WITH THE U.S. WHEN WE STICK TO 100% VIRGIN FIBER PAPER PRODUCTION. My point is: The U.S. doesn't need to roll around in the mud with the foreigners when WE HOLD THE ADVANTAGE! The U.S. needs to learn that when we get a guy down, SHINE YOUR BOOTS ON HIS ARSE, DON'T HELP HIM UP!

Just what are we going to do with all that cardboard, compost it perhaps, you think burning it is a good idea so you can make more, but in reality you only have to cut down a tree once and leave the new growth to grow. The advantage is in cheap product

[talaniman]

You still have to do something with the trash humans make as consumers and as producers of goods and services. Why not recycle if you can for profit since those are jobs and a revenue source. Seems to be enough trash in the world for the whole world to make a few bucks and clean air and less pollution is a great by product of such efforts. The pros greatly outweigh the cons in my book.

[paraclete]

with you there Tal gives the poor people something to do

[jlisenbe]

Why not recycle if you can for profit since those are jobs and a revenue source.

As I understand it, that's somewhat been the problem. There is little to no profit in recycling. That's why so many municipalities are abandoning it.

[paraclete]

The United States has at least a hundred years reserve of natural gas.

The US has a million years reserve of hot air and if you could harness that all debate would be mote, however, irrespective of whether AGW is a reality or a myth, our civilisation is too dependent on the fossel fuel teat, whether it be 100 years or four hundred years, things need to change.

[jlisenbe]

things need to change.

I thought you did not believe that global warming was man-made. If you don't think it's man-made, then why do you believe we need to change from fossil fuel usage?

[paraclete]

I thought you did not believe that global warming was man-made. If you don't think it's man-made, then why do you believe we need to change from fossil fuel usage?

Because fossil fuel is finite and it is polluting in many ways, just stand on the corner of a busy street, it isn't CO2 you are smelling

[jlisenbe]

It's finite, but there is an enormous supply left that will last many decades more, and there is doubtless enormous reserves yet to be developed. For probably 98% or 99% of the U.S, pollution is not a significant problem. Technology has solved much of that problem here. When I stand on a busy street, I just smell the air. Any odor is absolutely minimal. But I do think we will eventually go electric with cars since it seems to make economic sense. Natural gas, not as polluting as gasoline or coal, will be used more in trucks and trains. At least that's my guess on the subject.

[Vacuum7]

The fly in the ointment for electric cars is the batteries/fuel cells need to be made (nasty!) and the batteries have to be charged. What recharges those batteries and where does that recharging unit get its power to recharge those batteries? This is not a virtuous and perpetual cycle.

[paraclete]

The fly in the ointment for electric cars is the batteries/fuel cells need to be made (nasty!) and the batteries have to be charged. What recharges those batteries and where does that recharging unit get its power to recharge those batteries? This is not a virtuous and perpetual cycle.

Not yet but nuclear power will solve that. Yes lithium ion batteries are not the answer very polluting industry

[talaniman]

Like anything that too can be managed safely for enough profit to keep it going. Some manage it better than other.

[paraclete]

Like anything that too can be managed safely for enough profit to keep it going. Some manage it better than other.

fairy story

[jlisenbe]

The fly in the ointment for electric cars is the batteries/fuel cells need to be made (nasty!) and the batteries have to be charged. What recharges those batteries and where does that recharging unit get its power to recharge those batteries? This is not a virtuous and perpetual cycle.

That's a fair statement, VAC, but it is cheaper to charge an electric car's batt than to put gasoline in a gas burner. It's a LOT cheaper, in fact. Give free enterprise another ten or twenty years and the battery problem might very well be solved.

[talaniman]

There is a cost associated with everything in America, and they just keep adding more stuff and more costs.

[Vacuum7]

Talaniman: Can you say NEXT BIGGEST THING? Which usually connotes "NEXT BIG GIMMICK".

Talaniman: You and I seem to be of like mind of a few things and one of them is the suspicion that the GOAL of most of these NEW DRUMBEATS is to "work us over but good".