[NeedKarma]

I will disagree, everyone is religious

And I will also disagree. It's akin to racism in babies: babies don't care what colour skin their playmates are.. racism is a learned trait. Religion is the same way: babies don't care or know one iota about religion until they are indoctrinated into it.

The argument that not having a belief automatically means that they believe they are their own gods is a laughable position - they couldn't care less about gods either way LOL.

Even in remote places with tribes that have no outside contact, they develop a religion based on something, the sun, or moon, or the earth.

Yes, because of their ignorance, they use something to explain events they don't understand.

[smoothy]

Funny how it's the Atheists that get their panties in the biggest knots over something they think doesn't exist.


Makes you wonder if they get this excitable about other things that in their mind, don't exist either... and why?

[Fr_Chuck]

You should see how they go off, about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

So religious people are Ignorant, and only those people who have no religious belief are educated. Can we really look at bigotry? Which in a way proves a point, that at some point people believe they are "all" there is, and that man is the supreme being. Is this not making man their god?

[CravenMorhead]

Funny how it's the Atheists that get their panties in the biggest knots over something they think doesn't exist.


Makes you wonder if they get this excitable about other things that in their mind, don't exist either... and why?

You should see me rant and rave about The Leaf's chances on getting to the playoffs this year.

Honestly we're living in a dramatic period in time where having no faith is acceptable. It is hard to deal with the concept of another person not having the faith that you do. The bonds of community for the longest time were based on faith. It would be the glue that held the town together. No you will drive into a town that has 15 churches for each flavour of religion.

The fundamental reason that any faithful person, be it atheist or not, gets their hackles up is being told they're wrong. Being Atheist I have had many discussions, including with a catholic girl friend who was certain that I was going to hell because I didn't believe, with the devout and they've been heated on either side.

Which is to say: It's not just us bub.

[CravenMorhead]

You should see how they go off, about Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.

So religious people are Ignorant, and only those people who have no religious belief are educated. Can we really look at bigotry? Which in a way proves a point, that at some point people believe they are "all" there is, and that man is the supreme being. Is this not making man their god?

Hhhmmmm... The gifts I just wrapped for my kids that are from Santa... or the boxes of easter stuff I have in my closet. While this is akin to shouting, "Not All Men" at a rape survivors meeting, I have to say that it is so bloody irritating the assumptions that people make because of your faith.

You're painting some incredibly large strokes there chuck. Very bigoted strokes as well. People are smart, regardless of their faith. It is when people do not understand faith that some will look down on others with disdain. It is what the Europeans did with the Natives in the Americas, Australia, Africa, and anyplace where the technological level of the society wasn't close to theirs. Right now the same thing is happening between Atheists and Theists without the understanding of how meaningless the fight actually is.

Honestly Chuck, I believe in myself. I figure someone has to. Doesn't mean I am a god, I am just a man. Same as you.

[smoothy]

You should see me rant and rave about The Leaf's chances on getting to the playoffs this year.

Honestly we're living in a dramatic period in time where having no faith is acceptable. It is hard to deal with the concept of another person not having the faith that you do. The bonds of community for the longest time were based on faith. It would be the glue that held the town together. No you will drive into a town that has 15 churches for each flavour of religion.

The fundamental reason that any faithful person, be it atheist or not, gets their hackles up is being told they're wrong. Being Atheist I have had many discussions, including with a catholic girl friend who was certain that I was going to hell because I didn't believe, with the devout and they've been heated on either side.

Which is to say: It's not just us bub.

So...

If you are right... nobody will ever know because everything ends shortly after your last heartbeat...

If we are right... well... it gets ugly for you. As far as I'm concerned it was a choice you made. And you made it knowing the options such as almost every other choice you make as an adult. I don't lose any sleep over it. I'm no missionary.

I also find it unfathomable how Atheists are so quick to defend Muslims who have a VERY long history of killing anyone who does not convert to their way of thinking, and continue to do so daily because Atheists aren't exempt from their wrath.

We don't have a recent history of that being the case with other religions.

[CravenMorhead]

So...

If you are right... nobody will ever know because everything ends shortly after your last heartbeat...

If we are right... well... it gets ugly for you. As far as I'm concerned it was a choice you made. And you made it knowing the options such as almost every other choice you make as an adult. I don't lose any sleep over it. I'm no missionary.

I also find it unfathomable how Atheists are so quick to defend Muslims who have a VERY long history of killing anyone who does not convert to their way of thinking, and continue to do so daily. And Atheists aren't exempt from their wrath.

We don't have a recent history of that being the case with other religions.

The thing is smoothy, I don't know. I have been questioning my faith a LOT over the last few years, and yes Atheists can have crises of faith. I have contemplate oblivion, just not existing after my last breath and nothing has scared me more in life. I don't have the comfort of reincarnation, or heaven, or what not on those cold winter nights when all I have to think about is this.

This is the common argument that comes up that I am so very tired of. I will say, "Prove to me that there is an afterlife" you will say, "Prove that there isn't" I will say, "There is no evidence to support that calim", you will say, "There is ton in my holy book with JC came down and laid down the real deal." I will say, "You can't trust that, it doesn't stand up to scientific scruinity." You will say, "It doesn't have to it is a matter of faith." I will say, "Faith is something that you can quantify." etc. ad nauesum. Can we put it down as being said?

I don't know why it is perceived that we defend Muslims so quickly. Maybe it is because we're both oppressed by the vast majority of Christians? We feel a commardary because we're both attacked up on by the church. As well, Islam is a religion of peace and acceptance, in the same way that the Christian faith is. You scream ISIS, I will scream IRA, Witch Trials, and a thousands other examples of christians killing those who won't convert. You're not without sin. Don't throw stones.

This is were it gets dirty, Smoothy. I don't want to go there.

[smoothy]

The thing is smoothy, I don't know. I have been questioning my faith a LOT over the last few years, and yes Atheists can have crises of faith. I have contemplate oblivion, just not existing after my last breath and nothing has scared me more in life. I don't have the comfort of reincarnation, or heaven, or what not on those cold winter nights when all I have to think about is this.

This is the common argument that comes up that I am so very tired of. I will say, "Prove to me that there is an afterlife" you will say, "Prove that there isn't" I will say, "There is no evidence to support that calim", you will say, "There is ton in my holy book with JC came down and laid down the real deal." I will say, "You can't trust that, it doesn't stand up to scientific scruinity." You will say, "It doesn't have to it is a matter of faith." I will say, "Faith is something that you can quantify." etc. ad nauesum. Can we put it down as being said?

I don't know why it is perceived that we defend Muslims so quickly. Maybe it is because we're both oppressed by the vast majority of Christians? We feel a commardary because we're both attacked up on by the church. As well, Islam is a religion of peace and acceptance, in the same way that the Christian faith is. You scream ISIS, I will scream IRA, Witch Trials, and a thousands other examples of christians killing those who won't convert. You're not without sin. Don't throw stones.

This is were it gets dirty, Smoothy. I don't want to go there.

I don't know how or where ANYONE can claim Islam is the religion of Peace... when they have a history of oppressing to the point of death, any other faith that exists in any place they are a majority. And the history of that is WELL over 1,000 years. IN fact they have never been either accommodating or friendly towards any other faith anywhere once they aggregate in sufficient numbers to be able to impose their will by force. They also aren't any more friendly towards Atheists either.

And the incidents of that are greater by order of magnitude than any transgressions by Christians or any other faith.

Also Atheism isn't exactly peace loving on it's own either. The three greatest Genocides/mass murders in recorded history have occurred in the last century by Atheists. Namely Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. (hundreds of millions killed between them) So there is no moral high ground in a lack of faith either.

What's that saying....when you are pointing at someone or something...there are four other fingers pointing back at you?

Lots to go around on ALL sides. But there is something to be said about learning from mistakes and moving on. How long ago were the Salem Witch trials....the Spanish Inquisition? What's happening in the name of Islam right now in various parts of the world?

[talaniman]

Just because you claim Christians have figured it out, doesn't mean others won't, nor because you don't chop off heads anymore excuse your treatment of others either, as the protecting of pedophiles in recent years, and the dehumanizing way non Christian natives and minorities of America were and are treated under the policies and rules of this so called Christian nation.

According to YOUR words...

What's that saying....when you are pointing at someone or something...there are four other fingers pointing back at you?

YOU have 4 fingers, and a thumb pointing at YOU. Or did you mean"Do as I say do, not as you see me do."?

[CravenMorhead]

I don't know how or where ANYONE can claim Islam is the religion of Peace... when they have a history of oppressing to the point of death, any other faith that exists in any place they are a majority. And the history of that is WELL over 1,000 years. IN fact they have never been either accommodating or friendly towards any other faith anywhere once they aggregate in sufficient numbers to be able to impose their will by force. They also aren't any more friendly towards Atheists either.

And the incidents of that are greater by order of magnitude than any transgressions by Christians or any other faith.

Also Atheism isn't exactly peace loving on it's own either. The three greatest Genocides/mass murders in recorded history have occurred in the last century by Atheists. Namely Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot. (hundreds of millions killed between them) So there is no moral high ground in a lack of faith either.

What's that saying....when you are pointing at someone or something...there are four other fingers pointing back at you?

Lots to go around on ALL sides. But there is something to be said about learning from mistakes and moving on. How long ago were the Salem Witch trials....the Spanish Inquisition? What's happening in the name of Islam right now in various parts of the world?

I never claimed any moral high ground for atheists. What my claim is that all faiths, atheist, christian, Buddhist, muslim, FSM, are folk. You will get the same cross section of people. Hitler was Christian, Stalin was atheist, Saddam was Islamic, and what does that mean? If you're a sociopath then it doesn't matter what any invisible man/flying spaghetti monster you believe in, you can commit genocide and use whatever reasoning you want to justify it.

Smoothy, with the amount you've traveled, I am well and truly surprised that you have seen the peace loving side of the Muslims. Even when I was in and near the islamic side of China it was evident. You can look at the Christians with the same eye and see that they've never been a peace loving community either.

This is the case where you can tell a woman she's beautiful a million times but that one time you say she's not, is the only one she'll remember and the only thing she'll key on. When all you see is death then that's all you're going to think of them.

[NeedKarma]

So religious people are Ignorant, and only those people who have no religious belief are educated.

Nope I didn't say that, go back and read it. It's a tool ancient tribes used to ascribe meaning to things they didn't understand.

[smoothy]

I never claimed any moral high ground for atheists. What my claim is that all faiths, atheist, christian, Buddhist, muslim, FSM, are folk. You will get the same cross section of people. Hitler was Christian, Stalin was atheist, Saddam was Islamic, and what does that mean? If you're a sociopath then it doesn't matter what any invisible man/flying spaghetti monster you believe in, you can commit genocide and use whatever reasoning you want to justify it.

Smoothy, with the amount you've traveled, I am well and truly surprised that you have seen the peace loving side of the Muslims. Even when I was in and near the islamic side of China it was evident. You can look at the Christians with the same eye and see that they've never been a peace loving community either.

This is the case where you can tell a woman she's beautiful a million times but that one time you say she's not, is the only one she'll remember and the only thing she'll key on. When all you see is death then that's all you're going to think of them.

There may be some peace loving Muslims (a minority of them)... but there is no peace in Islam... I've traveled enough and seen enough that I have nothing but proof to back up my feelings.

Nobody can or ever will change my mind on that because I survived a terrorist attack targeted against non-muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam. By coincidence and luck... I am here today. Most people that believe they are peaceful haven't seen what I've seen or experienced what I've experienced. You may or may not remember my having said this previously elsewhere... But I was in that part of the pentagon the entire evening, I was supposed to still be there when the plane hit except I was so agitated and tired I had to get out of there and walked out on my customers (15 minutes before it happened)... something I have never done before or since. The people I worked with all night that night and on a number of occasions previously... now have their names on the Memorial there.

I have no grudges against any other faith (or against Atheists)... because they haven't acted as the Muslims have in my lifetime. I don't hold grudges for what happened before my grandparents were born... Or I would hate the British and others. But the grudge I hold was for actions directed at me specifically and others around me because of Muslim hatred towards non-muslims. There is no better reason to hold a grudge than that... and I am NOT a big enough man to turn the other cheek on someone trying to put a knife in my back. And I have seen little proof Islam as a whole has grown beyond what they were 1,600 years ago. The world has moved on and progressed in many ways, they however for the most part have not.

[Wondergirl]

terrorist attack targeted against non-muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam. By coincidence and luck... I am here today.

radical, fundamentalist males who interpreted the Qur'an literally

[talaniman]

Originally Posted by smoothy
terrorist attack targeted against non-muslims by Muslims in the name of Islam. By coincidence and luck... I am here today.

Luck? "But for the grace of God go I". They got the SOB behind that massacre, maybe you should get help to get over it... like we tell so many others that have been traumatized by life changing events.

[ScottGem]

I don't know how or where ANYONE can claim Islam is the religion of Peace... when they have a history of oppressing to the point of death, any other faith that exists in any place they are a majority.

Have you ever read the Koran? Just because there are Islamic extremists who abuse the teachings of the Koran, doesn't change its basic teachings. As noted, other religious extremists have used the "word of god" to justify a lot of atrocities. It's the main reason I don't believe in organized religion in any form.

And remember, I've had a similar level of luck. I was on the 50th floor of the South Tower when the first plane hit the North Tower. I do not, however, hold it against people of the Islamic faith or Muslims, just against those who use the Koran to justify their unspeakable acts.

What it all comes down to IS faith. Some people have it other don't. If your faith works for you, then more power to you and I'm happy for you. I won't tell you that your faith is wrong, just that it is faith. I see things differently and just as I respect your right to see things differently I expect you to respect mine (and I'm talking globally, not individually).

[smoothy]

radical, fundamentalist males who interpreted the Qur'an literally

And the MILLIONS who follow and support them make them neither a small number nor insignificant. If we were talking tens or even hundreds it would be different.

And tell that to every religious minority in any majority Muslim nation in the world...you will hear the same things I have said.

[Wondergirl]

The Chicagoland Muslims don't seem to be causing any problem. Most of them have library cards.

[smoothy]

The Chicagoland Muslims don't seem to be causing any problem. Most of them have library cards.

And what percentage of the local population do they amount to? Certainly not a large enough majority to start calling for Sharia type laws to be enacted. Unlike certain towns in Michigan.

Individually many of them are OK....I wouldn't say otherwise. Its when they amass in large enough numbers that they start trying to impose their will on others that the situation changes..

[Wondergirl]

From what I can find in a quick search, there are more than a half million Muslims in this area. A Muslim school is a few blocks from me, and a pre-K thru gr. 12 school and prayer center (non-profit Islamic Foundation, since 1974) is in the suburb east of me. Many Muslim professionals live in nearby Oak Brook, McDonald's and Beanie Baby world headquarters.

You might find this list interesting -- http://www.aiamasjid.org/aia/chicago-mosques-list.html

[CravenMorhead]

But the grudge I hold was for actions directed at me specifically and others around me because of Muslim hatred towards non-muslims. There is no better reason to hold a grudge than that... and I am NOT a big enough man to turn the other cheek on someone trying to put a knife in my back. And I have seen little proof Islam as a whole has grown beyond what they were 1,600 years ago. The world has moved on and progressed in many ways, they however for the most part have not.

Smoothy, I respect you a lot. I know who you are and what you have been through. It is because of that I want to say to nut up and get over it. CaCa happens and you think the faith did it. It didn't. People did it. A organization who was using gurellia tactics to kill as many people as possible. The reasoning they used was from a book and only that. It is asinine to assume that a faith did this. You might not be a bigger person but you're a wiser person. You know better.