Donna Mae posted in topic "Is there a God?" :

"I believe it as soon as I see it. The problem with this statement is that when you see it (the Judgement), it will be to late to believe then".

Besides that that only MAY BE TRUE (as it is subject to the existence of that deity which many of you call "God", and if there is any judgement at all), there is another problem with this point of view.

YOU may believe in the existence of God, and in the powers and features attributed to God, but if you don't believe in the existence of (your and any other) God : what can one do?

Born into a Christian family I rejected the belief in (any) God(s) at the early age of 12 years.
I did not change any other habits and viewpoints. I have not murdered anyone, pay my dues where demanded from me, do a lot of unpaid volunteer activities, am a member of an international disaster team, still help old women to the other side of the street (if they want to go there), and am open to other views (i.e. also to Christianity). But I do not believe in the existence of God.

Donna may be correct. Or she may not be correct. It is the wellknown ´Wager of Pascal`.
Should I fake it than? Would an omniscient God not know I would fake it?

Most of you are all 99,999.999.999.999.999% (1) convinced that there is that deity called God with all these characteristic described to it, while I am 99,999.999.999.999.999% (1) convinced that the deity called God does not exist, and that there is no ´Satan`, that there are no ´Heaven and Hell`, that there is no ´Final Judgement`, etc.

Besides that everyone should be allowed to believe whatever ´feels good`, you can not force a belief upon yourself or another. I do not see any reason neither to even try to change my position. But I respect whatever you believe in.

All I do not respect are the conclusions some of you draw from your religious beliefs. Like a 6000 years old earth, or the creation myth converted into anti evolution attack (a rather intolerant approach towards those of other views, while creationists demand full tolerance towards their own views (but most of the time fail to provide themselves towards those of other views). Just as you are allowed in your belief(s), I am allowed in what I feel right !
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Now what can (and-or should) one really do if one does not believe in (and or questions) the existence of God?
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(1) 99,999.999.999.999.999% : sassyT claims that there is nothing you can know 100%, so 99,999.999.999.999.999% than :)
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Questioning the existence of an Almighty being is not wrong,that question could lead to research and you could be on a path of discovery of the Truth.

If you do not find the truth while you are alive,you will find the truth after death,whether the believers in an afterlife is right or those that disbelieved in an afterlife is right.You will also find answers to the question,"is there an Almighty?" beyond death,until then it is your right to search or research.

And just to let you know,Hinduism does not believe in many Gods,but they believe in One Supreme God,who manifests in different forms.

1 - I´ve done enough research on that in my life. And my conclusion is clear : hamna evidence, so no truth to discover, other than that there is no proof for the existence of God !
2 - Not really. Only if theists are correct that is so. If Atheists are correct all thoughts will disappear upon dying. All we both will see is that tunnel vision with the white light at the end (a physical reaction to the brain starving of oxygen)...
3 - I have to disagree : There is a wide range of Hindu perceptions towards God. Some Hindu´s indeed have one main god (Brahman). Others make a distinct difference between multiple Gods. Hinduism is actually a collection of many different religions.

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My feeling on this is that it doesn't matter whether you believe in God or not. What really matters is how you live your life. If you live your life by the Golden Rule, if you are basically honest and ethical (sorry ex-Gov Spitzer ;) ), then even if there is the proverbial judgement day, whoever is doing the judgement is going to look at how you lived, not what you believed.

There is a far difference from not believing personally and going out of your way to attack and try to weaken the faith of others, One is a personal belief, the other shows a more dark side, determined to fight against God. In fighting against God, you show you actually believe he exists but refuse to accept him, and beyond accepting him, you wish to battle against him.

God made it very easy, as jesus said, you are either for him or you are against him.

Can as Scott said, a person who is not religioius ( Christian, Muslim, Buddist) live a good life, yes, they can in all aspects do good works, give to the poor, they can even go into churches and be deacons

But to that, they do good works for the benefit of doing good works.

Even a Christian does not do the good works to earn any place in heaven.
But they do good works because they wish to follow the example of Christ.

If you believe in God or if you don't, it is your decision. All we can do is tell you what we believe. I believe in God because I choose to study God's word so that I will know what the truth is. You will probably never come to accept Jesus unless you want to. Know one can force you to read the Bible to see that Jesus is our Savior, and may be you wouldn't believe even if you read it.

Our only job is to warn people of the coming of Jesus, what they do with that information is between them and God. God is the one who adds to His flock, not me. I want to warn as many as I can about the Judgement because on that day I don't want someone to say to me, why didn't you tell me about Jesus? You knew the truth, why didn't you tell me? How sad that would be.

Everyone has free will, if you choose to believe, if you don't, that's up to you. I think God doesn't want us to be pests about it because He said to warn someone, once. Then warn them a second time, if they don't accept then, wipe the dust from your feet and move on.

I really get discouraged on here because I think I do spend too much time in arguments and lengthy discussions. I need to just inform those who want to know about God and Christ and that's all.

The problem I have with this, Donna, is that you BELIEVE it's the truth, but you can't prove it. What happens with proselytizers like you is that you tend to have this self-righteous attitude that you know the truth and anyone who doesn't believe in it is wrong. This shows a lack of respect for other people which turns people off and ends up in arguments and bad feelings.

I am happy for you that you have found what you feel is the truth. I am glad it gives you comfort. But please don't tell me that I am not comfortable in my beliefs. Its one thing to tell people what you believe, it's a different thing to attack what others believe. And that's the line that too many people cross. I haven't read too much of what you have posted so I'm not sure whether you cross that line, but from what I've read, you come very close to it.

Sorry, but I don't have anything to prove. I state God's facts. What you do with it is up to you.

I cross that line all the time, since it is my duty and job to let others know the joy they are missing by not having Christ in their life.
And from the testomony of 1000's that did not know and latter found Christ, we know as a fact that people without him are missing things in their life. But in the end it is always the persons choice to accept or reject, but it is the duty and obligation of the Christian to give you the information so that you decide.

Chuck,

FundiEv Christianity in America is all about POLITICS... therefore, 'you all' get challenged because of your political side, as you rightly should!

"Christianity" is politics, now. All decent Americans can challenge whatever you say. :)

Yes and don't forget to vote Fr_Chuck as your write in vote.

But in many ways politics is only a side effect, since the even the courts ( Supreme Court) and Federal court appointments come from who is President and the moral direction of our nation is controlled by who gets elected.

And of course being a Christian does not take ones right to be part of the poliical process away, I am a firm beleiver that we should have a Christian party to stand up for Christian values. If every baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic and all of the churches that are suppose to stand for family values, if every member only voted for people with correct moral values, we would see a change in the direction of our nation.

A Christian doesn't have to prove anything, we know the truth. I don't call that a self-righteous attitude, because what I tell others is not for my benefit, it's for theirs and God's.

I didn't write the rules, I'm just saying if you read the Bible-you'll know what God's will is.

I have the greatest respect for others, if I didn't I wouldn't be telling them about Christ. The only reason I do this is because I care about the souls of others.

I bet this puts me over the line?

Yes, Donna and Chuck it does put you over the line. I understand where you are coming from and I don't really have any expectation that I will change you, but the fact that you feel you know the truth, when there are billions of people who believe in a different truth shows a level of arrogance and disrespect that you just can't see. And no level of argument is going to convince otherwise, because according to your belief system if you even acknowledge that someone else's belief system may be right it shakes the foundation of your faith.

But it IS arrogance to assume that other people need to be "saved". It is self-righteousness to believe that you know the truth and others don't. I have read the Bible by the way, and I know what the Bible says is God's will, but I haven't seen any proof that it is God's will. The Bible was written by men. Men who believed they knew what God's will was, but men nonetheless.

And no, you don't have the greatest respect for others, because to respect others is to allow them to believe what they want. You can't do that. I grant that you think you need to poselytize to be true to your faith. But please don't try to convince us that you are trying to save us because you trespect us. It doesn't work that way.

I concede you care about the souls of others, but I maintain that you haven't the right to proselytize.

Oh and I feel absolutely nothing missing in my life because I do not believe in organized religion. In fact I feel very comfortable in my beliefs. I feel I've hedged my bets by leading a moral and ethical life. And that, if that isn't enough should there be a judgement day, then I'm happy with that.

I imagine you don't realize the hypocrisy of your statements.

I find it disrespectful that billions of people are allowed to believe in different truths, but Christians are arrogant and disrespectful when they even mention the truths that they have. Does that really sound fair to you?

And I thought non-believers weren't trying to change anyone!

See that's where you get it wrong. I have no problem in your stating what you believe in. Up to the point where you challenge someone else's beliefs. I understand that your interpretation of the Bible commands you to try and convert others. And that kind of leaves us in a Catch 22. For you to follow your beliefs you have to challenge mine, for me to do what I believe in I wind up challenging that belief of yours. So it does kind of make me a bit of hypocrite to say I respect your beliefs but not when you proselytize. I reconcile that by the understanding that I'm only challenging that one part of your belief, not the whole belief system as you are doing.

I find it odd however, that the Old Testament didn't include such a mandate. Yet you believe in the Old Testament.

I guess change was the wrong word. I'm just trying to get you to understand that you can't show respect for someone if you you challenge everything they believe in. That you can't show respect for someone if you try to "save" them when they don't feel they want or need to be saved. That you should feel comfortable that they are comfortable in what they believe in even when it runs counter to yours.

You need to realize that historically, this mandate to convert everyone to Christianity has caused more harm than good, has been behind some of the worst excesses of humankind. The Inquisition, the Holocaust, millions killed as missionaries spread disease throughout the so-called third world.

No I will never support proselytizing.

And the spread of the Gospel has done the most good, medical care in all parts of the world, the largest charity groups in the world, For many decades the entire education system for the US andfor centuries the education system for most of Europe and still for many parts of the world.

When world disaster hits, you don't see many Buddists or Islam charity groups rushing to the aid, I have not see an athiests charity group rush to their aids, it is the christian who always answers the call.

And no one said you have to.

Very good point Chuck.
I like the eye!

None are so blind as those who will not see.

Doctors Without Borders/Médecins sans Frontières

American Red Cross

UNICEF - UNICEF Home

Amnesty International


It's also worth pointing out that non-believers who go around doing nice things for humanity don't usually go around saying that they do it because they don't have god beliefs. If they mention it at all, they usually say "it's for humanity" or "it's the compassionate thing to do". Also in many cases, the charity that the religious engage in is merely a means for converting others. The primary goal is not solely to help alleviate suffering but to spread the faith.