For toluca_86.

Aren't you late for your N.O.W. meeting?

I'm not a member of N.O.W. But if you meant that as an insult, it didn't really come across as one. (Feministing on the other hand, I do like a lot).

I'm just speakin' the truth though bro'... legal history as it is on the books and everything -sorry if you can't handle that.

If you could point out the "legal history" in any of your posts, I believe I can handle it.

Just the fact that you totally dismiss how feminism "may" have changed the role of woman in the home, and that the effects that has on society in general have been harmful, not only to women, but to men and children as well, then you are not living in reality at all.

It is however, no surprise to me, given your young age, that the feminism has been very effective in shaping your thoughts and beliefs, so when it comes right down to it, your replies only prove my point.

Thank you.

Where did you get this idea from?

"If you could point out the "legal history" in any of your posts, I believe I can handle it."

Like I mentioned the fact that prior to the 1970s, it was legal for a husband to rape his wife. And you can go back and read court cases where judges dismissed cases for that reason.

Feminism did a lot for women's rights in the work place and political sphere and also for their rights to not be abused physically or sexually (again, talking mainly legally here), but that doesn't mean it might not have contributed to certain other things getting complicated. But please, I know so many women who grew up before feminism who were abused physically and/or sexually by men, were cheated on, etc. even if they didn't tell anyone about it at the time -I'm really tired of the "good old days" myth.

But I know plenty of stay-at-home moms who are also feminists. And there are plenty of non-feminist men who are very disrespectful of housewives. So I don't think your generality really stands up so well.

"It is however, no surprise to me, given your young age, that the feminism has been very effective in shaping your thoughts and beliefs"

"the feminism"? It's "feminism", not "the feminism". And yeah, I think due to feminism I probably have higher standards in guys than I would otherwise -expect a certain level of honesty and respect, expect them to respect my boundaries, etc. But if you think that's a bad thing, I'm afraid there's no room here for conversation.

"Where did you get this idea from?"

From the poster who said he was no longer a nice guy because women broke his heart. I guess I should have said "a lot of guys". And even still, I wasn't sure it was true -it was meant to be more of a hypothetical.

You know Toluca, you seem to be very argumentitve.. yeah yeah yeah you have a right to your opinion blah blah but YOU are asking us for advice and we're giving it, you can take it or leave it.. stop being so defensive! (I'm also talking about the other question that you posted where I gave my opinion and got shot down from you)

I wasn't looking for a political debate here either. I'm pretty sure you're the one who started the political stuff, at least from my perspective. So now we can stop discussing the feminist movement and get back to discussing /people as they exist in reality currently/, thanks.

And please no more "it's women's fault if men are a-holes" talk. Plenty of men, women, and even children go through hard, unfair situations and manage to not take it out on innocent people from there on out.

"And please no more "it's women's fault if men are a-holes" talk."

I actually agree with this, my only reason for posting is to point out the fact that people can only treat you badly if you allow them to (by allowing them to come into and remain in your life)... I think it's easy to say, 'Men are just dogs' but when are women going to stand up for themselves?

If every woman in a bad relationship just walks away from their abusive or not so great boyfriend or husband and then he moves on and treats the next woman the same and she walks away and this pattern repeats it's self surely this man will learn the error of his ways or accept a single lifestyle but too many women will accept "bad" behavior and the man learns nothing!
It's not our job to 'teach'... and
Surely they aren't justified in having this bad behavior/attitude but women can't just play the victim either after all if we aren't a part of the solution we too are part of the problem... I just wanted to explain how some women contribute... by not having a backbone!

progunr, just wanted to clarify what I was agreeing with, after rereading your post I realized you were blaming Feminism for some things that aren't exactly related...

I agree that some women do disagree with having the traditional lifestyle that some men think they have to provide. Our society has changed and roles are reversing but for better or worse Feminism isnt the culprit...

I'll speak from experience and say that some women in my family look at the things you described as simply being an 'Independent Woman' and this is particularly apparent in Black culture (from what I've seen) because of the lack of successful or even the presence of a Black male influence in families more Black women are "doing it for themselves" so to speak.
They are more educated and better employed than their male counterparts so the thought of giving the male a superior or more traditional role isn't likely because the feeling is "I can do what you do and BETTER!"

I can see how this type of behavior may push some men away so that's why I was agreeing and I also read the post too quickly ;)

Hope this clears things up...
By the way I am black and german (This is what I've seen in my family and friends).

"If every woman in a bad relationship just walks away from their abusive or not so great boyfriend or husband and then he moves on and treats the next woman the same and she walks away and this pattern repeats it's self surely this man will learn the error of his ways or accept a single lifestyle"

Well, except when you consider that there are more abusive men than women, possibly more a-holes who are men than women as well, that leaves a lot of women single as well as it leaves a lot of men single. Maybe if every woman was willing to go without sex for a long period depending on a guy's behavior, this would work -but it seems awfully fictional to me, kind of like that Greek play where women withhold sex until the men agree not to go to war. On an individual basis though, myself (and many women) /do/ break up with a guy if he starts treating us badly. Then he either goes and finds a woman who will put up with it, /or/ he finds a woman he's smitten with and suddenly turns into a great boyfriend. Either way, the first woman in this scenario has already been hurt, even though she walked away. In the latter case, she will probably feel hurt again. This guy, on the other hand, is not necessarily going to change.

Clearly you're missing the point. Whether women unite and all leave a bad relationship (not going to happen), withhold sex (very unlikely) or whatever... the point is women should stop putting up with unwanted behavior! And Until/Unless more women take on that role then they really shouldn't complain because "if we arent a part of the solution we too are part of the problem..."

Are you sure you aren't here just to argue your position?

You seem to be very pessimistic towards men and (me?) although I am not arguing against you just offering the flip side to this scenario... it is only realistic to evaluate each person's role in this, especially considering... we can't change anyone's behavior but our own. You do understand that plenty of women contribute to this behavior you describe (if not look around this site!)?

There is a big difference between what women SAY and THINK that they want, i.e "A nice calm guy" and what women actually are uncounsciously and consciously ATTRACTED to, which i.e can be "The bad boy sort of guy/player".

Many people miss out on this. :)

Okay,

I got to the point where this post became a personal attack and stopped reading. I do want to post my opinion, however:

First off, I am not going to blame women for the change in men or men for the change in women, in a social sense. I do however think that the actions of women STRONGLY influence the actions of men later in their life.

What I mean is this: Women like to complain that there are no nice guys left (I know I am generalizing, so no, not everyone, but you know what I mean). At the same time, men like to complain that women don't like the nice guy. Women claim to want the nice guy, to wish they had someone who would treat them nice, not be an @$$hole constantly and generally treat them like they are worth something more than sex.

The problem: When women find this, they aren't happy. I know plenty of guys who would be considered nice guys, but since they don't do enough of treating women like sh!t, they don't get the attention from them. Why? I have no idea, but there seems to be a strong correlation between how much abuse a guy can give out and how much attention he gets from women. I'm sure some of you don't want to hear that, but don't tell me it isn't true.

I myself have, at times, been disillusioned by the apparent lack of attention that being nice will get a guy. I wouldn't by any means consider myself a needy or desperate individual, but the simple fact that if I want attention from a lot of women I have to put on the front that I am at times ignoring them. I can't explain this, but it certainly seems to be true.

This turned into more of an unorganized rant than anything, but it certainly seems to me that respect and being nice gets you nowhere until you have done your fair share of being an @$$hole and have finally gotten someone interested.

So I have a question, mainly for the women. Am I truly way off the mark here? Is the frustration felt by many men (the nice ones) senseless? Is there really no basis for it? Or, perhaps, is it true that women use phrases like "mysterious" and the "thrill of the chase" to mask the fact that regardless of the amount of complaining, they enjoy the poor treatment...

Hi Big Bird,

I know this is a tough one, and we women are hard to figure out. You know, being a woman, I have had my ex husband, boyfriends, and guy friends ask this so many times, and honestly this is a tough question, and yet interesting question. I can't answer this for all women out there, but I will let you know my thoughts on this from myself... Okay, here we go..

I always want a nice guy, I am big on a man being faithfull to me, and respectiful. Where the 'bad boy' aspect comes in (I hate even using that term) is in addition to the above characteristics, I love when the man in my life is protective, stands up for me, defends me' kind of that 'knight in shining armour/warrior' characteristic. That slight toughness, which makes me feel secure. (I think it is fair to say that most women if not all like the security a man offers). So if I guy has a type of bad a$$ in him, (Not a bad a$$ towards me) it makes me feel, again in addition to the rest of the qualities, sexy, secure, and loved.

I hope this kind of made sense.

These women that are attracted to men that dish out abuse are the ones I don't want to meet. They somehow seem 'defective' to me. I'm a nice guy who married a nice girl. She was attracted to my extroverted nature (she's more of an introvert) but never once did I ever treat her bad. Now we have two great kids and a good life. Hey women, get jerked around by the 'bad boys', us nice people will sit on the sidelines and enjoy the show. :)

Hm. I'm a nice guy.. . I think I answered your question.

Hi Sneezy!

How are you. And yes, by reading your posts since I've been here, you are a nice guy :)

Agree, I like that. Those women certainly aren't the ones you want to get involved with.

Starlite - I agree 100% that a guy should be able to support and stand up for his girl - that's not what I meant by @$$hole. I was referring more along the lines of the girls that love the guy who goes out, gets drunk and wants to fight anyone and everyone... what sense does that make??

We're a dying breed, that's for sure. Been married twice, so there are a few rough edges, but as I've aged I realise the world does not revolve around me. It revolves around my friends, and damn (pardon the french) it is a lot nicer place nowadays. Maybe its an age thing, maybe men grow up a lot later in life? Who knows? I wish you luck in finding one of us. We're in the phone book, try looking under 1-800-NICE-GUY?

Sorry this is me being flippant... poor sense of humour!

Hi Big Bird,

Sorry about that, I went on a course of my own ;). I have no idea as to why some women enjoy that type of guy. I think that type of man is beyond a&&hole status. The women that find these men attractive, my be real insecure, and feel that they can't do any better, I suppose. I don't get it either, BB