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    Fr_Chuck's Avatar
    Fr_Chuck Posts: 81,305, Reputation: 7692
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    #1

    Apr 28, 2006, 06:28 PM
    Drugs
    I have just read where Mexico votes to legalize small amounts of cocaine, heroin and marijuana.

    What are the implications where American citizens cross the boarder and use what is there legal drugs but would then have traces of the drug in their system for drug tests in the US. Since they did not do anything illegal by any government law, could they then be held responsible for employee drug tests.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,282, Reputation: 10853
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    #2

    Apr 28, 2006, 09:32 PM
    Yes! A positive drug test can get you fired since drugs are illegal in the U.S. But another aspect of Mexico's new policy will be less drug related arrest for small amounts of drugs hmm.. :cool:
    fredg's Avatar
    fredg Posts: 4,928, Reputation: 674
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    #3

    Apr 29, 2006, 04:42 AM
    Hi, Chuck,
    Very good question!
    The US Gov't doesn't know what to do with the millions of illegal immigrants in the US now. This only adds to more problems.
    My own opinion is that if anyone tests positive in the US for drugs illegal in the US, it's still the same actions by the employer.
    Other examples could also apply. If something is legal in another country, then a person is caught doing it in American, where it is illegal, then it's still illegal here.
    Best wishes.
    Krs's Avatar
    Krs Posts: 2,906, Reputation: 320
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    #4

    May 10, 2006, 02:56 AM
    I think marjuana should be legalised only. Its not such a harsh drug compared to others and that way the government and police can concentrate on more important issues than just marjuana.
    Cgirl's Avatar
    Cgirl Posts: 287, Reputation: 38
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    #5

    May 10, 2006, 07:48 AM
    I agree, although I do not partake in Smoking, I think our government should focus on more harmful drugs out there such as crack and heroin. I don't think Marijuanna is necessarily bad. I do think that Crack and cocain is. I think if anyone in the U.S. is tested by their employer and crack/cocain, heroin, or any other hard drug is in their system, they should be penalized, even if they did do it in Mexico. The fact is, those drugs are harmful and addictive, and chances are, if they do those type of drugs in Mexico, where it would be legal, then they will do it here. Those are drugs that are immediately addictive and ruin lives.
    kp2171's Avatar
    kp2171 Posts: 5,318, Reputation: 1612
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    #6

    May 10, 2006, 09:50 AM
    The issue here is employment and the perception of what is a right.

    For example, a basketball coach was forced out of a job after getting caught in pics drinking with students. Technically, the coach did nothing illegal. School thought it put the univ in a bad light... out goes the coach.

    A health care company fires all employees who smoke or refuse to take tests to prove wheter they smoke.

    NYC's transport union is threatened with a fine of a million dollars a day for the strike that crippled the transport system... declaring the workers protests illegal. This ex isn't the same as the others, since the strikes are banned by law, but the freedom of speech isn't banned. You just risk your job by speaking your mind.

    An employer asks all current employees to sign a non compete contract and then fires those who refuse to sign.

    So the point is that you are simply not free to do anything, even if it is legal.

    Many tend to be ignorant of the fact that many times employers do have the right to fire at will. Outside of a few things, such as race, gender, religion, age, military leave, your employer does not need to have good cause to fire you.

    So while I'm all for indiv rights... I also understand my rights as an employee and employer. If I'm a charitable org and I find an employee is engaging in risky behaviour that could hurt the PR of the org, the right to fire will be used if there is no other recourse.

    I have absolutely no problem with a company firing employees for the use of an substance that is illegal in this country, even if the use of the substance was in a country that allowed it.

    The rights of the employer stretch far beyond that.
    magprob's Avatar
    magprob Posts: 1,877, Reputation: 299
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    #7

    May 10, 2006, 04:04 PM
    While I was a probation officer, one of the Deputies told me that the jail inmates would have a new inmate, that used crystal, pee in a cup. The inmates would then dry the pee on a flat surface, scrape up the residue and snort it. The amount of crystal left in the urine will get them high! That means that the illegal substance is still on their person... even if it is in their person... does it not? When I explained this to one of the judges, he said it would not be too far fetched to dry a urine specimen, scrape it up, test it for drugs and charge for possession. If a person uses illegal drugs in a country where it is legal, then is tested in a country where it is illegal, I would assume they are still under full penalty since the illegal substance is in or on their person,(possession). Also, do you really think your employer would fall for the line, " you can't fire me since I did cocain in Mexico where it was legal? If that were the case, everyone would be doing it! They isn't going to let all that get started!;)
    kp2171's Avatar
    kp2171 Posts: 5,318, Reputation: 1612
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    #8

    May 10, 2006, 08:58 PM
    Concerning the comment on my earlier post-

    "talaniman agrees: The boss is always right!?!?"

    no. I don't think that. But right and legal are sometimes two different things. Just and legal are not always the same. But in this case, I think the employers rights are mostly just.

    Id be upset if my mother was fired because she works for a health care provider and smokes, for example. But... I don't think the fire at will right that an employer has is necessarily a bad thing. It makes an employee vulnerable and uncomfortable... but there was NEVER a guarantee of employment in the first place. Its not a birth right. It is an opportunity. And sometimes things don't work out.

    I know it sounds like I'm saying the boss is always right. I don't think that... but I don't think that an employer should have to apologize for letting an employee go if they think there is something about that person that in incompatible with the running of the business. It's a business... not a life time meal ticket.

    While the boss might not always be right, in many cases the boss HAS that right.
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,282, Reputation: 10853
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    #9

    May 10, 2006, 10:07 PM
    I worked in a union shop for 30 years and the boss had better be right. Taking someone's lively hood because the boss feels like it is too much like slavery. Since being in Texas it seems like there are no workers right at all, and everyone's happy so who am I to shake the cart. But the boss has a right to make fair and just rules that apply to everyone including testing for drugs.:cool: :eek:
    kp2171's Avatar
    kp2171 Posts: 5,318, Reputation: 1612
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    #10

    May 11, 2006, 05:14 PM
    My father and grandfather were both union. I marched in solidarity parades as a kid, so I'm not one to say its OK to treat workers poorly or not pay reasonable wages. And firing for meanness and without reasonable cause is dishonorable, but not illegal in most circumstances.

    This is an issue where there are just gray areas because laws are meant to be flexible and not written to a specific situation. I would be very uncomfortable with an employer who constantly tests me for drugs... although if I so choose to work in an area that demands it, it is my choice. If I've chosen to make my livlihood in a business environment that I'm not suited for, then that's my bad decision.

    If the boss feels an employee doesn't fit in with the business, if this person may do damage to the business by their conduct, then I think it's a crime to make that employer suffer the damage such an employee can make. It impacts the employer and all of the employees as well. I've seen this first hand and everyone in the place was in a much better work environment when that jerk was shown the door. The customers didn't have to suffer the guys attitude, the coworkers all could do their job better. And he was pretty much fired for being an a$$.

    So I agree and I don't. There needs to be balance. Employees need to be respectful of the business environment and understand the expectations of the employer. The employer needs to be respectful of the employee as well. But id just rather not have a flammable truck being driven by a guy who did coke, under legal circumstances or not.
    rudi_in's Avatar
    rudi_in Posts: 251, Reputation: 45
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    #11

    May 11, 2006, 05:51 PM
    I am going to throw some fuel on the fire here and see what response we get.

    What are your thoughts to this statement?


    Name:  think.png
Views: 1214
Size:  19.2 KB

    Many of these substances are illegal simply because the government does not have a system in place that controls the production, sale, and collection of taxes on them.
    kp2171's Avatar
    kp2171 Posts: 5,318, Reputation: 1612
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    #12

    May 11, 2006, 06:05 PM
    Marijuana, cocaine, lsd, crack cocaine, meth, heroin... there's a start.

    Of these id say marijuana is the ONE that you might be able to argue out of the group.

    Id like others to persuede me otherwise, but one out of 7 isn't "many" in my book.

    While there probably is some pessimistic truth to the statement (the govt is interested really only if it can fill the coffers), I'm thinking there are other reasons these are not legal... maybe its just me.
    magprob's Avatar
    magprob Posts: 1,877, Reputation: 299
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    #13

    May 12, 2006, 10:19 PM
    I don't think the government will be adding recreational drugs to the list of federally approve drugs that have a definite response to pain, illness or disease. So what would you do, go to a doctor and say, "hey man, I feel like getting stoned this weekend!" They have dirivatives of the Coca plant for pain but crystal meth is just plain evil crap with no use other than that which it serves now... to totally distroy anyone that uses it. As far as pot, it is good and bad with no real proven medicinal value. The bad part is anyone that smokes it every day. They really are not living life to their fullest potential... they are just stoned! The good part, from what I hear, since alcohol is my drug of choice, is that it really relaxes, until you start smoking it day in and day out and you are just always stoned. Terminal patients say it relieves pain and that is good. I think if you are dying, you should be allowed, under law, to use pot to live your last days as comfortable as possible. Perfect case scenerio: Put it all down and just get high on life.:p
    talaniman's Avatar
    talaniman Posts: 54,282, Reputation: 10853
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    #14

    May 12, 2006, 10:45 PM
    Back in the day we never got tested unless there was probable cause, such as an accident or outlandish behavior. But everyone was smoking weed or drinking. But these new drugs scare the hell out of me and today you have to take a drug test just to get hired, which I isn't mad about but these youngsters know all the tricks when it comes to passing those tests! That's scary too, because you may be working next to some strung out... and never know!:cool: :eek:
    magprob's Avatar
    magprob Posts: 1,877, Reputation: 299
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    #15

    May 12, 2006, 11:36 PM
    The person administering the test is the most important part. If that person knows the correct procedure, the test will be 99% accurate. I have had people try to cheat but I busted them mostely due to their own suspious behavior. I had one guy that had a tube running from his business end to a pump mounted in his pocket which was full of some one else's urine. It was a pretty nice out fit with just one little problem, it made an obnoxious pumping sound when pumped! I told him half way through the procedure that he might want to have his prostrate looked at by a doctor! He had more plumbing affixed to his person than the restroom we were using! After working for the State prison, Federal prison and being a probation officer, I have done more U/As than I want to remember. I am retired and I will never do another nor will I give another. You are correct when you say you do not want to work in a critical job with a druggie. I, personally, don't want to share the streets with them! Tweakers are stupid. I have known a few in my life and they are the most nonproductive people on the planet. The only job a Tweaker could do is to be a speed bump in a trailer park! Even that could be a danger to the people driving by.:eek:
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #16

    Jun 15, 2006, 06:11 AM
    Hello:

    There are more and better drugs right here in the good ol USA. I don't know of anybody who would do drugs in Mexico, but wouldn't here. To believe otherwise isn't realistic.

    excon
    RickJ's Avatar
    RickJ Posts: 7,762, Reputation: 864
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    #17

    Jun 15, 2006, 06:29 AM
    Quote Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
    I have just read where Mexico votes to legalize small amounts of cocaine, heroin and marijuana.

    What are the implications where American citizens cross the boarder and use what is there legal drugs but would then have traces of the drug in thier system for drug tests in the US. Since they did not do anything illegal by any government law, could they then be held responsible for employee drug tests.
    Employers are legally permitted to not hire smokers, so I don't see why they could not also prohibit drug users.
    Cgirl's Avatar
    Cgirl Posts: 287, Reputation: 38
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    #18

    Jun 15, 2006, 07:54 AM
    This is why illegal drugs (besides marijuanna) should NOT be legallized...
    Attached Images
     
    excon's Avatar
    excon Posts: 21,482, Reputation: 2992
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    #19

    Jun 15, 2006, 08:19 AM
    Hello:

    I respectfully disagree with Cgirl, and ANY of you drugwarriors out there.

    What I DON'T disagree with, is the devastation methamphetamine causes in peoples lives. However, the drug war hasn't kept it out of anybody's hands either. Therefore, I suggest that all drugs be RE-legalized, regulated so that they stay out of the hands of children, and taxed heavily to pay for the burden drug use puts on society.

    Exactly like cigarettes!! However, cigarettes kill 10 times as many people as ALL the illegal drugs put together, and that includes people killed in drug crime.

    Do I think legalization would solve the drug problem? Yes! About 90% of it, anyway. About 10% is caused by addiction. The other 90% is caused by the justice system.

    Most importantly, legalization would do a much better job of keeping drugs OUT of the hands of children, than we are doing now. THAT is where our enforcement should be concentrated on, - NOT adults. In this country, if you want to stay high all day, you should be free to do it.

    Please don't misunderstand me, drugwarriors, I said a drug user should be free to stay high - not free to STEAL to stay high. But of course, if drugs were legalized, a user wouldn't have to STEAL to stay high.

    excon

    PS> Oh, I suppose there are those of you out there who are going to say that if we legalize drugs then there will be an explosion of drug use. I say, bahh. In my experience, people who have a propensity to use drugs, are in fact, using drugs. I don't know anybody who is just waiting to dive into the drug world, who isn't already there. Look around in your life. Do you know anybody? No, you don't. Pot smokers?? They're ALREADY smoking pot.
    CaptainForest's Avatar
    CaptainForest Posts: 3,645, Reputation: 393
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    #20

    Jun 15, 2006, 08:39 PM
    Quote Originally Posted by excon
    Therefore, I suggest that all drugs be RE-legalized, regulated so that they stay out of the hands of children, and taxed heavily to pay for the burden drug use puts on society.
    Aren't cigarettes suppose to also stay out of the hands of children? And yet, our local convenience store sells them to children. So how does legalizing it help children in that way?

    Quote Originally Posted by excon
    Exactly like cigarettes!!! However, cigarettes kill 10 times as many people as ALL the illegal drugs put together, and that includes people killed in drug crime.
    People have much easier access to cigarettes then they do to others.

    I can walk into a store and buy a cigarette to try, but where to find cocaine?

    I don't know. There is this one guy I am told who secretly sells it.

    Point, its much harder.

    Quote Originally Posted by excon
    But of course, if drugs were legalized, a user wouldn't have to STEAL to stay high.
    That isn't true.

    If you are addicted, you could very well steal the LEGAL product.

    I have seen/heard of people who steal alcohol and cigarettes from stores.

    If you can't afford it and you are addicted, you will steal it either way.

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